Mod+ 242. OLIVER HOCKENHULL, NEURONS TO NIRVANA

I find it very interesting that the brain itself is responsible for these things, what does that mean? The brain creates these illusions of self and time? We now have a good idea of the neural correlates for the mystical experience, with or without drugs.

great point! to emphasize... it's not like we lose our ability to function... in fact, it seems to be enhanced in a lot of ways... so, we have to conclude that this self and time stuff... the stuff we build our entire existence around is not fundamental to who we are -- science is dead!
 
Interesting interview! In regard to the government and public policy issues regarding psychedelics, it does seem to me that Timothy Leary played a pivotal role in provoking the thought in the government that these substances could to some degree unravel the social order. In this vein, I strongly recommend Higher Wisdom: Eminent Elders Explore the Continuing Impact of Psychedelics by Roger Walsh and Charles Grob.

My understanding is the medical community really dislikes Leary for his overly provocative tactics.
 
I don't know. I suspect they kept at it (because that's what we pay them to do) and had some success. Sirhan Sirhan was almost certainly a mind control, manchurian candidate victim.

I don't know either really. I only know a bit about the documents that were uncovered that had been miss filed, all the rest were destroyed. Horrendous stuff. Crimes of humanity against your countries own citizens! Yet none of the many very high profile military and government figures involved have ever been brought to justice. This part is not a conspiricy theory but an exposed and very significant series of criminal acts over many years. Then there is the apparent murder of Olsen bit. Geez the CIA have been busted running drugs. (for different reasons though.)

Even without the conspiricies the facts are startling enough.
 
Going back to entheogens as technology, one thing we used medication for is to balance out the vagaries of life when it comes to how the body is treated. Pollution, cultural, family, wealth, genetics, and so on - all can affect a body.

Similarly, factors can effect the ability to integrate a spiritual life into one's regular existence, Even the inclination may be conditioned out if the shaming tactics of skeptics is successful.

What entheogens allow is an opportunity for anyone to potentially explore the Numinous. Beyond that, the suspicion of higher realities seems to increase when one takes - or in my case merely studies - the psychedelic experience. Even Sam Harris didn't know what to make of the commonality in DMT experiences.
 
Going back to entheogens as technology, one thing we used medication for is to balance out the vagaries of life when it comes to how the body is treated. Pollution, cultural, family, wealth, genetics, and so on - all can affect a body.

Similarly, factors can effect the ability to integrate a spiritual life into one's regular existence, Even the inclination may be conditioned out if the shaming tactics of skeptics is successful.

What entheogens allow is an opportunity for anyone to potentially explore the Numinous. Beyond that, the suspicion of higher realities seems to increase when one takes - or in my case merely studies - the psychedelic experience. Even Sam Harris didn't know what to make of the commonality in DMT experiences.

There is the hypothesis that we're wired all the same. But I'm guessing even Sam isn't saying that. Sam Harris strikes me as interesting, he was at one time open to psi and reincarnation and then moved away from it rather quickly.
 
Okay. So some people don't like my music analogy. I'm not sure I like it much myself, and I admit I was struggling to express something. Let's see if I can't express myself better. Here's an interesting quote:


In the most recent issue of the Journal of Near-Death Studies, Dr. Michael Potts of Methodist University compared the elements of the DMT experience, as listed by Rick Strassman, with the elements of the near-death experience present on the authoritative 'NDE Scale' put together by Dr. Bruce Greyson. The results were surprising: although there were some similar phenomena between the two experiences, there were a lot more unique characteristics to each. And importantly, Potts notes...
...frequent or key NDE phenomena have not, to my knowledge, been reported among DMT experiencers, such as traveling through a tunnel into a transcendent realm or reporting subsequent to the experience that one perceived veridically during it. And finally, aftereffects of the experiences are dissimilar: Apparently permanent changes after NDEs are the rule rather than the exception, but after DMT experiences are the exception rather than the rule.
Potts makes clear though that he is not saying that DMT plays no part at all in the NDE. But thus far, he says "the evidence in its favor is not as strong as its advocates have claimed", and we can be reasonably certain "that DMT is neither the only nor the chief mechanism in the production of NDEs".

Personally, I think that NDEs are genuine spiritual experiences with real potential to change and enrich lives. Please note that I'm not saying that experiences resulting from entheogen use aren't genuine, only that I doubt they are spiritual.

The difference being, that NDEs are natural occurrences, whether or not they are correlated in some degree with the release of entheogens, e.g. from the pineal. They happen during the state of dying or even clinical death, and we have advances in medicine to thank for much of the increase in reporting of them in the modern era. It seems likely that we are all destined to go through an NDE, whether or not we are revived (and if we are, whether or not we recall the experience). It's part and parcel of the experience of transitioning from consciousness being filtered by the brain to it not being so filtered.

If Potts is right, DMT experiences do not map that closely to NDEs. They are a different animal. It wouldn't surprise me if DMT does in fact affect the brain filter and "lets in" some of the manifestations of reality that ordinarily escape us--e.g. unusual sensations of colour and sound--but possibly not in a coherent way. Sure, I've no doubt they are remarkable, but whether they have spiritual developmental potential is different issue.

The fact that there are shamans who have developed traditions based around the use of entheogens that constitute what some might regard as a spiritual apprenticeship doesn't prove that that's what it is. There are spiritual traditions (e.g. Sufism) that eschew the use of drugs, claiming that they create false or misleading experiences and increase the danger of becoming fixated on sensationalism: another kind of ego trip.

Having a coherent and useful spiritual experience is one thing; having a less coherent one, even if elements of it are similar to the former, is another. I guess that was what I was trying to say with the comparison between hearing sounds and appreciating a symphony.
 
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If Potts is right, DMT experiences do not map that closely to NDEs. They are a different animal. It wouldn't surprise me if DMT does in fact affect the brain filter and "lets in" some of the manifestations of reality that ordinarily escape us--e.g. unusual sensations of colour and sound--but possibly not in a coherent way.

Here you are clearly showing your ignorance of the experience. I would suggest doing some research into the archives of DMT experience reports before making any such claims.

The fact that there are shamans who have developed traditions based around the use of entheogens that constitute what some might regard as a spiritual apprenticeship doesn't prove that that's what it is. There are spiritual traditions (e.g. Sufism) that eschew the use of drugs, claiming that they create false or misleading experiences and increase the danger of becoming fixated on sensationalism: another kind of ego trip.
The same thing can be said of a lifetime of meditation for some people, or a lifetime dedicated to charity work. We can turn anything we want into an ego trip.
 
I once had a try with some Moroccan Black many years ago at my mum’s flat in Wimbledon, London. At the time, she was seeing somebody who was involved in the drug trade. As an asthmatic I didn't want to smoke it, so I ate a tiny piece, which appeared to have no effect. So after waiting ages, mum finally said she was going to bed. So did I, but I woke up about 2am in the morning and found the drug had kicked in. During the experience, I had the most disconcerting delayed vision, which took time to catch up with where I was looking, that really panicked and frightened me.

I knocked on my mothers bedroom door waking her up, and went in and sat on her bed, whilst she stroked my hand and talked me down from a horrible paranoid attack. I think she found the whole thing immensely amusing, as after entering her bedroom I became convinced that men with guns were going to break in through the doors and windows. It was the most bizarre sense of inexplicable knowledge. I never thought anything about it, other than it was a horrible bizarre fantasy during my paranoia attack from the effect of the drugs.

But last year on Penny's blog, I suddenly made a connection between my experience and an incident my mother had told me about. Some months after my paranoia attack, there was an incident at her flat with armed drug dealers looking for her boyfriend.

I rang my mum last year, to ask her to recall the incident. Mum said the men were banging on the windows and doors shouting to her to let them in, as they knew her boyfriend was inside. They were correct, she wasn’t alone, her boyfriend was actually there. He hid in her bedroom, and told her to call the police for an armed response team, as through a window he had seen one of the men had a gun. The armed police arrived, and the men left.

She won’t talk about what happened later in the day, but they left the flat, and something very frightening happened to her boyfriend. Then later in the day they returned to the flat. At which time her boyfriend collapsed in a chair in her bedroom, and asked her to call an ambulance, as he thought he was having a heart attack.

I asked if she had been frightened by the earlier incident, and she said she had been absolutely terrified that these armed men were going to break in. She also said that her boyfriend had also been terrified whilst hiding in her bedroom.

As I pointed out above, although I was already panicked and frightened by the effect the drugs were having on me, the feelings of paranoia, and the thoughts of armed men breaking in through the doors and windows didn’t start until after I had entered her bedroom.

Needless to say, I've never taken drugs since. Anyway, another one of my interesting incidents...
 
Personally, I think that NDEs are genuine spiritual experiences with real potential to change and enrich lives. Please note that I'm not saying that experiences resulting from entheogen use aren't genuine, only that I doubt they are spiritual.

Well I guess that like me, you have never tried an entheogen, but in my case, it is some concern about the safety of the process - particularly when chemicals can be contaminated, and mushrooms can be confused with poisonous varieties. I guess is your case you think using these substances is intrinsically wrong - but I don't really understand why.

However, my point is that we are neither of us equipped to say if these experiences are spiritual!

David
 
Here you are clearly showing your ignorance of the experience. I would suggest doing some research into the archives of DMT experience reports before making any such claims.
Can you give a link or two to reports that show NDEs and DMT trips are closer than Potts claims?
The same thing can be said of a lifetime of meditation for some people, or a lifetime dedicated to charity work. We can turn anything we want into an ego trip.
Absolutely. And Sufis caution against those things, too. That's why they encourage people to have normal jobs and lifestyles and, when being charitable, to be so in secret.
 
Well I guess that like me, you have never tried an entheogen, but in my case, it is some concern about the safety of the process - particularly when chemicals can be contaminated, and mushrooms can be confused with poisonous varieties. I guess is your case you think using these substances is intrinsically wrong - but I don't really understand why.

However, my point is that we are neither of us equipped to say if these experiences are spiritual!

David

It's not that it's wrong, David: that's a moral verdict. It's more that I believe it's ineffective if one is seeking spiritual growth. As to whether or not DMT experiences are really spiritual, I listen to those who've taught me such as I know about spirituality. Based on their effectiveness in doing that, I'm inclined to trust their judgement. And after all, if I do trust them, why would I consciously ignore them regardless? I've had a few of what I believe to be spiritual experiences, and none of them have been spectacular. I'm very suspicious of the utility of the spectacular, and of the motives of those who seek it. It doesn't seem like a popular opinion, but what the heck, I'm entitled to my twopence worth.
 
Can you give a link or two to reports that show NDEs and DMT trips are closer than Potts claims?


Here are a bunch. Lots of tunnels. Wormholes. Supreme beings. Life transforming experiences. Other entities. DMT at low does seems to give a limited color show. But at higher does the experience is much different.

https://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_DMT.shtml
http://www.serendipity.li/dmt/340_dmt_trip_reports.htm

Absolutely. And Sufis caution against those things, too. That's why they encourage people to have normal jobs and lifestyles and, when being charitable, to be so in secret.

I think that is all good advice.
 
I think the reason DMT doesn't have long lasting effects is because it doesn't last very long.

Ayahuasca, which is DMT + monoamine oxidase inhibitor, is a much more profound spiritual experience given the accounts I've read. But even DMT had managed to assist people in Strassman's study to some extent.

Speaking strategically I think that if people want a paradigm shift then something like ayahuasca is more likely to make people consider there's something beyond the material. Not to mention the anecdotal reports of Psi being boosted by psychedelics.
 
I once had a try with some Moroccan Black many years ago at my mum’s flat in Wimbledon, London. At the time, she was seeing somebody who was involved in the drug trade..

That is a very remarkable story - and must have been proof beyond doubt to you that there is another reality to be accessed - which is not hallucinatory, but which contains information about the future!

Maybe I am a bit surprised you don't want to explore it further.

David
 
The spiritual side is just one aspect, but one does not have to be spiritualy inclined to benefit. Although the therapeutical psychological benfits could be included as spiritual progress, depends on your point of view. It is hard to avoid, it is only natural it crosses over into well being.

There have been some studies, not enough, but there is no doubt it Ayahuasca has helped many with addictions ,anxiety, depression, PTSD, aggression etc.. There are also other traditional medicinal uses of the plants used. Chacruna is used for eyedrops to treat headaches, mimosa also has traditional use as medicine. There are dozens of additives with a range of uses.

Psilocybin has helped with death anxiety in studies, can also help with depression, . Can help with cluster headaches. Has even shown to promote the growth of new neurons in the hippocampus aiding learning and memory.

All seem to promote neuro plasty, allowing more easily big lifestyle changes and all seem to have anti addictive qualities.
It allows for repressed memories to surface, it shines a light into the darker places of your soul making you deal with them, it lets you step outside of yourself and see clearly what is wrong. This is also why it can be very confronting and difficult. Personal transformation is spiritual transformation as far as I am concerned. But it does not matter if you accept spirit or not, you probably will be more inclined to from the experience. The proof is in the pudding.

I think they exist so we can benefit from them, who says you can not still follow a traditional spiritual path and still not benefit from entheogens? Why does it have to be one or the other? They offer a way free of dogma without the hangovers of religion. Although if you dig, you see that all traditions have roots connected with entheogens even if they currently do not condone intoxication in their doctrines.
 
Very interesting firsthand comparison of NDEs and psychedelics:

The Difference Between Drug-Induced Spiritual Experiences & Near-Death Experiences By NDEr Diane Goble

"The difference is brain chemistry is affected by LSD. During a NDE experience, consciousness leaves the brain. Consciousness survives death and is eternal. Having experienced both, I have some expertise.

"During my NDE (40 years ago at age 30, I drowned), I was part of the experience, involved in it, participating in it, one with it. There was never any fear, only overwhelming love and peace. It was more a remembering, it all came back to me, of having done this all before, knowing I was going home, an experience of having complete knowledge of the Whole/Source/God.

"About 15 years later, I tried LSD a few times, also mushrooms and MDMA.

"This was shortly after I found out what I had was called a 'near-death experience.' Before that I didn't know what to call it and never talked about it because I was afraid people would think I was crazy -- or possessed. Then I started reading about other people having similar experiences.

"The psychedelic experiences were as different from my NDE as looking into a fish tank and SCUBA diving around coral reefs in Nassau. The only thing similar was the out-of-body experience and exploring another dimension of the multi-verse. A big difference is between seeing and being. LSD showed me a mechanical, Newtonian universe. Mushrooms more of a fairy land, full of interesting, magical creatures from etheric to earthy, underground. Ecstasy was an exploration of my inner being from a loving perspective. All fun and exotic, but nothing profound, ineffable, meaningful, esoteric like the NDE. I returned with knowledge of particle physics and galactic motion (and I'm no scientist).

"Forty years later, I remember no details from any of about half a dozen psychedelic experiences and every detail, feeling, and emotion from my NDE. It changed the course of my life, my personality, my interests, my beliefs, my future. I know my purpose in this life and I live it. I have no fear of death, I know what happens next! The drugs did nothing but provide a few hours of meaningless entertainment."
 
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In the most recent issue of the Journal of Near-Death Studies, Dr. Michael Potts of Methodist University compared the elements of the DMT experience, as listed by Rick Strassman, with the elements of the near-death experience present on the authoritative 'NDE Scale' put together by Dr. Bruce Greyson. The results were surprising: although there were some similar phenomena between the two experiences, there were a lot more unique characteristics to each.
I read Strassman's book with interest. I have no idea what is happening with DMT and with the entities people encounter. However, it is completely obvious that DMT experiences--whether real or hallucinatory--bear little resemblance to NDEs. I think Strassman's subjects had one experience that he thought was somewhat reminiscent of NDEs, yet even that one seemed to me to bear only a very thin resemblance. That's not to say NDEs are real and spiritual, while DMT experiences are not. It's just to say that the two experiences don't seem to have a whole lot in common. I came away feeling that that connection was overemphasized in how the book was portrayed.
 
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