AWARE Update - Peer Review Complete

Hmm, that's strange. I actually think quite the contrary. If I ever was in that situation my whole will would be devoted to grab as much possible information from as much impossible-to-get places possible. ¿Why would I even care about the entire "spiritual realm, mystique experience" thing? I've already read many of them, and one more won't make much difference, but if I managed to bring genuine information and produce a knockdown case of genuine NDE I might be able to change the entire paradigm of science forever (and perhaps change the mind of millions around the world, giving them hope), plus I get to become famous around the world, and maybe even rich if I ever decide to write a book on the subject. That to me, it's far more valuable than seeing a few sparkling angels and hearing some cute music.

The average person is probably more confused that they are experiencing anything in the first place, or concerned about people they care about. People's first instinct when they are dying is not usually to figure out how they can make a profit off of it.
 
No, that's not right. When the brain stem isn't working , nothing works in the brain and the brain stem goes down very quickly in cardiac arrest. Your ideas are just wishful thinking, mine are based on the history of experiments on animals and current knowledge/orthodoxy.
Tim, you now have to show the experiments to the rest of us.
 
Oh, I see a posse has been assembled :)

While I search for the stuff which exists, you can put your guns down and listen to Dr Peter Fenwick. Oh, Kai sorry I realise, he is an old fool, you know better.

http://greenlanefilms.co.uk/peter-f...gets-most-views-from-consciousness-conferene/ go to 8.30


Tim, Tim...

I saw the video from this new age style conference the first time you posted it. Exactly what is it supposed to prove? It's not a study with real time output from multiple deep probes in the human brain. Since you seem to go in for appeals to authority, then it was straight from the horse's mouth by the neuroscientist recently interviewed by Alex. The scanning technology for getting that kind of data doesn't exist at present. What part of this is really hard to understand?
 
Tim, Tim...

I saw the video from this new age style conference the first time you posted it. Exactly what is it supposed to prove? It's not a study with real time output from multiple deep probes in the human brain. Since you seem to go in for appeals to authority, then it was straight from the horse's mouth by the neuroscientist recently interviewed by Alex. The scanning technology for getting that kind of data doesn't exist at present. What part of this is really hard to understand?

You are talking nonsense, Fenwick is a high ranking and respected physician, the leading authority on NDE's in the UK. He has not been thrown out of the Royal College as far as I know and I do NOT presume he would be in the business of making up false statements. The data he is referring to EXISTS
but it is not something I particularly agree with. ( animal research) Nevertheless, I will find it and stick it up.

Are you seriously going to suggest that Fenwick has invented the animal studies ? He would do this in a lecture that would find it's way to the net ? I have seen papers but not recently, maybe because of the controversy they are harder to obtain now. I am getting pissed off with your intransigence, Kai.
 
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Sorry tim, but you're just not correct about this no matter how many times you repeat it. You've been told numerous times on this thread and others that we don't currently have the capability of acquiring that information, so when people make those kind of statements, whether they are physicians or not, they are making assumptions extrapolated from the failure to induce motor reflexes.

So you keep asserting ............
 
Tim, Tim...

I saw the video from this new age style conference the first time you posted it. Exactly what is it supposed to prove? It's not a study with real time output from multiple deep probes in the human brain. Since you seem to go in for appeals to authority, then it was straight from the horse's mouth by the neuroscientist recently interviewed by Alex. The scanning technology for getting that kind of data doesn't exist at present. What part of this is really hard to understand?

Kai, come on. Let's not be unfair. Tim provided a video of a legit neuroscientist who surely knows what he is talking about. Of course, he still needs to bring the studies, but his does seem to have some academic support. Let's give him some time so he can bring the relevant studies.

Tim, I hope you find the papers :).
 
Kai, come on. Let's not be unfair. Tim provided a video of a legit neuroscientist who surely knows what he is talking about. Of course, he still needs to bring the studies, but his does seem to have some academic support. Let's give him some time so he can bring the relevant studies.

Tim, I hope you find the papers :).

Master Wu, I am not going to go out of my way to provide facts that are well known to physicians. I will do my best to access them, beyond that I assume you are smart enough to respect established medical orthodoxy.
 
Master Wu, I am not going to go out of my way to provide facts that are well known to physicians. I will do my best to access them, beyond that I assume you are smart enough to respect established medical orthodoxy.

¿So you aren't going to provide evidence for your claims (or Dr. Fenwick claims)? Okey, I can respect that, but I find it strange you expect people to believe you despite the fact that you don't provide evidence. It's akin to certain people substaining ideas on claims made by famour physicists, but then refuse to provide support for said claims. I hope you reconsider your stand on this.

I respect medical orthodoxy, but I find that sometimes things are assumed rather than proven. Like in the rat with the brain surge study, nobody seem to be expecting such a thing to happen, which seems to imply we don't have the whole cardiac arrest issue studied as profoundly as we would wish.
 
You are talking BOLLOCKS. Fenwick is a high ranking and respected physician, the leading authority on NDE's in the UK. He has not been thrown out of the Royal College as far as I know and I do NOT presume he would be in the business of making up false statements. The data he is referring to EXISTS
but it is not something I particularly agree with. ( animal research) Nevertheless, I will find it and stick it up.

Are you seriously going to suggest that Fenwick has invented the animal studies ? He would do this in a lecture that would find it's way to the net ? I have seen papers but not recently, maybe because of the controversy they are harder to obtain now. I am getting pissed off with your intransigence, Kai.

Look. This is a waste of time. You are claiming I am saying all sorts of things I have never said. What I AM saying is that real time deep probing of the human brain under cardiac arrest has never been done to the absolute best of my knowledge. I'm pretty darn sure that such studies don't exist, and I'm pretty sure that you don't know of any either. It really doesn't matter very much what "Authority X" thinks of the matter, when that data does not even exist. Fenwick is entitled to his opinion. But in the absence of actual science, that doesn't make him right.
 
:D Yes tim, that's a difficult line for you to go down...

It shouldn't be difficult, because all there is regarding the argument at hand is established medical orthodoxy. There's not really anything else to go on. The only other option is to pull shit out of your ass like Kai does. And I think melodicEntopy already demonstrated what that leads to.

My concern is that Tim keeps feeding a troll like Kai.
 
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Meanwhile, back in the sub-conversation involving adults, DBS or deep brain stimulation is used to treat essential tremor and other conditions. So deep 'probes' into the brain do exist, but they have to be placed with exquisite care and can cause dangerous bleeds if not directly properly or if they shake out of position. Doing this kind of thing for cardiac arrest seems ethically and practically implausible.
 
It's not a big deal Kai. This can be easily solvable. Tim made a claim, so we give him the benefit of the doubt and we wait until he brings studies that show what he claims is true. If he can't we don't believe it, but you must be open to be possibility that he has those studies.

¿So you aren't going to provide evidence for your claims (or Dr. Fenwick claims)? Okey, I can respect that, but I find it strange you expect people to believe you despite the fact that you don't provide evidence. It's akin to certain people substaining ideas on claims made by famour physicists, but then refuse to provide support for said claims. I hope you reconsider your stand on this.

I respect medical orthodoxy, but I find that sometimes things are assumed rather than proven. Like in the rat with the brain surge study, nobody seem to be expecting such a thing to happen, which seems to imply we don't have the whole cardiac arrest issue studied as profoundly as we would wish.
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This is not a claim, it's a medical fact that the brainstem does not function after cardiac arrest. How can we be sure of this ?? Read the passage below, it tells you what the brainstem does and is responsible for :

brainstem, area at the base of the brain that lies between the deep structures of the cerebral hemispheres and the cervical spinal cord. It is divided into three sections: midbrain (mesencephalon), pons (metencephalon), and medulla oblongata (myelencephalon). The brainstem houses many of the control centres for vital body functions, such as swallowing, breathing, and vasomotor control. All of the cranial nerve nuclei, except those associated with olfaction and vision, are located in the brainstem, providing motor and sensory function to structures of the cranium, including the facial muscles, tongue, pharynx, and larynx, as well as supplying the senses of taste, equilibrium, and hearing. The brainstem also has nuclei important for sympathetic and parasympathetic autonomic functions. All efferent and afferent pathways between the cerebrum and cerebellum course through the brainstem, and many of them decussate, or cross, within this structure. Because of the important neural structures concentrated in this small portion of the nervous system, even very small lesions of the brainstem may have profound effects. Disorders involving the brainstem include trauma, tumours, strokes, infections, and demyelination (multiple sclerosis). Complete loss of brainstem function is regarded by some experts as equivalent to brain death

Have you read that, Master Wu ? Did you read the word SWALLOWING ....is a function of the brainstem

Immediately after a person falls to the floor after cardiac arrest, the doctors can insert a tube down the patients throat AND THE PATIENT DOES NOT
GAG. His swallowing reflex is ABSENT and this is why we can say that the brain stem is not functioning at that time. It doesn't mean that function won't return but it does mean it is temporarily down. Are you going to call bullshit on me ? This is fact

Now, I've spent half an hour rooting around trying to find a paper that might be suitable to show you in a simple manner. They don't and can't do experiments on human brainstems just like that. Animals have been used instead which I don't particularly like but I will continue to search for that kind of experiment.
 
:D Yes tim, that's a difficult line for you to go down...

Malf, why don't you get this ? The claim I made about the brainstem being off line after cardiac arrest is so easy to demonstrate, paramedics are doing it every minute somewhere. See the post below or above. If you read it I'll give you a biscuit.
 
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Have a look at this, it's paramedics on a message board talking about patients gagging.


Flight-LPActive Member
Location:
Houston, Texas
EMS Training:
Critical Care Paramedic

I believe she was talking about PEA. Also I've seen many medics tube "live gagging patients."
Click to expand...
Could be PEA..................

But shoving a tube down someones throat while they are gagging is barbaric. What do you do when they gag on an OPA? You remove it immediately and insert an NPA. Same goes for intubation. Either RSI them or insert it nasally. Besides, if they have a gag, they are not in cardiac arrest..........................
Flight-LP, Jun 30, 2008
 
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