Coronavirus Pandemic

Thank you! I feel exactly the same way! I try very hard to be empathic toward others because I think the NDE communicates that this is a moral imperative and central to why we exist. Being flippant with the well-being of others is a serious no-no according to the NDE accounts I’ve read. I’d wager being flippant about working as a whole to beat this virus and keep our world functioning as well as possible is also a no-no. Letting the house burn down to “protect freedom” seems outrageous to me.

The thing is I have no doubt that the plurality of opinion expressed here is sincerely held. I think putting it at its mildest that would be that both the scale of, and the reaction to the disease is massively overblown and that the overblown reaction is itself harmful. Clearly if you believe all that and plenty here do (and indeed if you believe more extreme versions where Gates and Fauci are acting in concert as evil masterminds to mess humanity up in some way) then it makes perfect sense not to wear masks, not to social distance etc — because you genuinely don‘t think you are hurting people — in fact you are helping them by demonstrating how overblown it all is.

What I don’t see is the objective basis for believing all that. While there might be debates around the margins about how to tackle outbreaks and the level of measures needed, that the disease is real and that it very negatively effects a proportion of those who catch it — way beyond the normal effects of flu seems clear and obvious to me . The majority of arguments from the other perspective seem to to me to be rooted in echo chambers and confirmation bias. Some are potentially a touch more convincing - the notion that it is population density rather than degree of lockdown that drives disease spread and mortality is an interesting one — but that would have been a seriously hard call to make prospectively without the benefit of data and experience to hand.
 
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What I don’t see is the objective basis for believing all that. While there might be debates around the margins about how to tackle outbreaks and the level of measures needed, that the disease is real and that it very negatively effects a proportion of those who catch it — way beyond the normal effects of flu seems clear and obvious to me .

People often to choose sides based on personal interests or other emotional reasons, and only then use reason to defend their beliefs. They pick and chose which evidence and experts to believe based on which supports their views.

I don't feel I have a high degree of certainty on this subject, Since you ask about the basis, I outline below what I think the arguments for and against are. But for each point you can often find rebuttals, contrary opinions, and or counter arguments. I am not trying to push an opinion or say who has the best arguments, or determine who is right, I am trying to explain what people on each side think.

People think lockdowns were a mistake and or covid is no worse than the flu because they believe
  • The lethality of the disease is similar to a severe flu. This took a long time to determine because it required a lot of testing to determine how many people were infected but did not have severe symptoms. Initially testing supplies were scarce and only severe cases were tested.

  • In the US, a large fraction of deaths were due to misguided attempts to free up hospital beds by putting recovering covid patients into nursing homes which caused infections in many vulnerable elderly residents. This caused the measured the lethality rate of covid to be higher than the true lethality rate.

  • The number of deaths due to covid is inflated because hospital reporting criterion and monetary incentives are biased in favor of finding covid to be the cause of death.

  • In the US, various entities, politicians, news companies, have overrated the danger (and suppressed hydroxychloroqine) for ulterior motives. Some politicians and partisan media organizations want to damage the economy, damage Trump's reputation, and create public misery, in order to influence the election. News companies want to make more money by pushing a sensational story. Companies that produce healthcare products want to make more money.

  • In general politicians don't get blamed for doing something. They get blamed for not doing something. So the politically expedient thing for many politicians was to implement lockdowns.

  • Lockdowns cause many deaths from other causes than covid: suicide, economic hardship, lack of medical care for other diseases.

The questions/arguments on the other side are:

  • Why did China shutdown it's economy over a disease with a lethality rate no worse than a severe flu?

  • There are many different covid tests using different technologies and produced by different organizations. Some tests are unreliable and give too many false positives - this causes the measured lethality rate to be lower than the true lethality rate.

  • What were the effects of the lockdowns on the spread of the disease? In the US there is a peak in deaths about a month after the lockdowns which is what you would expect if the lockdowns saved lives. It takes about a month for existing infections to cause death. After the lockdowns started, the number of cases that led to deaths began to decrease. If the lockdowns saved lives we don't know how many deaths there would have been without lockdowns.

  • People who died at home and not in a hospital were not tested - they don't test corpses. The total number of deaths would be higher if those deaths were counted.

  • Comparisons between different countries and past years are not valid because different countries have different conditions (population densities, lockdown rules, standards of medical care etc) and in past years there were no lockdowns.

I agree with Trump's statements:

"Governors initially shut down states in an attempt to prevent COVID-19 patients from overwhelming hospitals and medical staff and also to allow scientists and doctors to ascertain the impact of the virus, including using treatments to fight it, the president said."

"The president said the purpose of a medical lockdown was to buy time to build hospital capacity, to stockpile medical equipment, and study the virus for treatment – something he said the United States had already done."

"Trump said that it was time to move Americans to reopen the economy and schools to keep the country running."

https://www.theepochtimes.com/trump...-more-harm-than-it-would-prevent_3448792.html
Trump: US-Wide Lockdown Would ‘Ultimately Inflict More Harm Than It Would Prevent’
President Donald Trump on Monday said he will not shut down the United States to curb the spread of the CCP virus, saying that doing so would cause more harm than good.​
“It’s important for all Americans to recognize that a permanent lockdown is not a viable path forward producing the result that you want or certainly not a viable path forward and would ultimately inflict more harm than it would prevent,” Trump said during a White House news briefing on the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) virus, a novel coronavirus that causes the COVID-19 disease.​
Governors initially shut down states in an attempt to prevent COVID-19 patients from overwhelming hospitals and medical staff and also to allow scientists and doctors to ascertain the impact of the virus, including using treatments to fight it, the president said.
“Lockdowns do not prevent infection in the future. They just don’t. It comes back many times, it comes back,” Trump said.​
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...downs-do-not-prevent-infection-in-the-future/

President Donald Trump on Monday repeated that a strategy of a long time or permanent lockdown was never an option to defeat the coronavirus entirely.​
“It’s important that all Americans recognize that a permanent lockdown is not a viable path toward producing the result that you want, or certainly not a viable path forward,” Trump said.​
...​
“Lockdowns do not prevent infection in the future. They just don’t,” Trump said. “It comes back many times. It comes back.”​
The president said the purpose of a medical lockdown was to buy time to build hospital capacity, to stockpile medical equipment, and study the virus for treatment – something he said the United States had already done.
Trump said that it was time to move Americans to reopen the economy and schools to keep the country running.
“We must focus on protecting those at highest risk while allowing younger and healthier Americans to resume work and school with careful precautions,” Trump said.​

Personally, I am hoping that this situation will increase awareness of ways to prevent contagious diseases like the flu through changes that don't have a negative impact on the economy or quality of life (ie. adequate sick leave so people with the flu don't have to come to work when they are sick), and in the future there will be many fewer deaths due to flu. Over the coming years and decades, this could save millions of lives.
 
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The tension

The most common thing of existence is tension.

From the basic of the existence of a single atom (from ether to observable back to ether in a super high frequency) from the atom to the galaxy (similar ether/physical/ether sequencing) to human living where extreme attraction (female/male) to an equally dis-traction sequence ending the relationship - only for these individuals to do the sequence again with another.

The business tension of serving customers on the understanding that the customer will in-turn-serve the business by abiding to their side of the deal. Mostly this does work out but sequences of extremes (new very happy customers and some very un-happy customers... extremes regarding the business/product).

Nature requires tension.
Or should I say it this way, "EXISTENCE requires tension."
The sense of safety within an environment of danger.
The sense of danger within an environment of safety.

The "just-when-everything-was-going-fine" something comes to bring the change. This, I submit, is because for existence to exist at all requires there come an opposition state - for existence to continue to occur at all requires the full/empty cycling... where the best parts of existing as a person in all this is the between times - not full and not empty.

Military or governmental or "deep state" agencies are using this tool "artificial intelligence" to weigh and balance the factors of tensions mathematically and systematically generate factions in a testing of whether tensions can artificially be generated to satisfy the natural requirements.
These would put out media which is calculated to control the vectors of the forces designed to collide and discharge.

If tensions are required by existence (Nature) then it is smart to understand this and work with it.

Oppositions (tensions) are or will manifest so the right thing to do would be the creator of the vectors and so control each of those involved vectors.
This is not a right/wrong concept as such, so probably I should have said it this way, "The more intelligent thing to do when presented with the requirement of Nature, would be to engineer the societal vectoring and collisions such that a remnant of a civilization can be continued afterward."

We do not know (I do not know) if existence is possible without a tension somewhere in the environment of the whole.

Persons have varying ability or capacity for tensions (problems). Street people have the capacity to be street people (under tension of this degree). Business people have their capacities for problems.
I am of the opinion NO ONE has a completely tension-less life. But some have a greater ability to be "as with a less tense natural state."

I should aspire to be like them. And this might be possible if I always keep in the shadows of my mind the potential tragedies available to me as seems to be available to all of us life gamers.
 
What I don’t see is the objective basis for believing all that.

Objective basis can't be a criteria when all the information put out is half lies, full blown lies or is stated as "one thing" today and "a different thing" tomorrow. Add on top of that you have people who exert authoritative power where their premise for wielding that power, in itself, is highly questionable, whereby their edicts and the results of those who follow those edicts murders thousands of innocent people (example - Cuomo's nursing home fiasco).

So what one has to go on is their gut and that's it now in this upside down world.

But then there's a layer on top of that which is far more important IMO. Each individual has the opportunity to decide for themselves the following - Does the physical life of my own body vehicle that I may put at risk mean more to me that my soul? If the soul is more important, than standing for one's truth wins out.

But then someone might argue... "Forget about yourself... what if you are wrong and your actions lead to the illness or death of another?"

My answer to this is simple and based on our current reality which I described above - There is no reliable objective truth to this "virus" and this isn't because there can't be, its because an objective truth isn't present thanks to so, so, so many human beings who are compromised by all sorts of factors... such as being totally mesmerized by the material reality and/or their perceived "position" within this matrix... a position they loath to risk - or, are so massively, emotionally, mentally and/or spiritually confused they can't see the actual enemy is first and foremost, a mind virus, and they got it.

And so it is far more a loving act to be an example of having extricated oneself from this mind virus. That is the very most loving and caring act I can do.

A rather simple approach to the scamdemic after all!
 
So let me get this straight:

Anytime one's "gut" casts doubt on the prevailing view of a potentially dangerous societal issue, the most loving and caring course of action is "you do you and I'll do me"?

That's some wild logic there.
 
CDC: One quarter of young adults contemplated suicide during pandemic

The toll is falling heaviest on young adults, caregivers, essential workers and minorities.

One in four young adults between the ages of 18 and 24 say they've considered suicide in the past month because of the pandemic, according to new CDC data that paints a bleak picture of the nation's mental health during the crisis.

The data also flags a surge of anxiety and substance abuse, with more than 40 percent of those surveyed saying they experienced a mental or behavioral health condition connected to the Covid-19 emergency. The CDC study analyzed 5,412 survey respondents between June 24 and 30.

Read the rest of the article.

When done, ask yourself, are lives put in danger due to the reactions of these various authorities? But I thought "saving lives" was they key to all these impositions? Now add on top of that the potential damage one does to their soul by committing suicide or by experiencing the trauma of their lives turned upside down? Add on top of that the fact that no one can truly claim they know, precisely enough, what the actual objective truth is about this "virus" and even further to that, if their be a real, measurable threat posed by "the virus" a.) was the virus created? b.) If so, was it intentionally released? c.) regardless of created and/or intentional, has the virus been exploited by those who do not have your best interests in mind?

Here's what's coming next - get ready...

Testing the Most Effective Method to Manipulate Minds

By the looks of it, we are about to face one of the most aggressive vaccine campaigns ever created. According to Reuters,1 the U.S. government is planning to launch an “overwhelming” COVID-19 vaccine campaign come November, provided the U.S. Food and Drug Administration gives one or more vaccine candidates the green light.

Please, read the rest...
 
From the start, there was a way of framing the whole event as a means of manipulating people out of their individual freedoms which, of course, roused significant numbers to "resist" by simply avoiding being responsible. This resistance has done nothing to increase anyone's freedom, but it has increased everyone's risk. Now, having engaged in bringing harm to others through parroting wrongheaded groupthink, not wearing masks, avoiding social distancing, and in being on the wrong side of the issue altogether, we have cognitive dissonance stopping people from acknowledging they made an error and doubling down, tripling down, quadrupuling down on their wrongheadedness.

I keep an open mind, but I have to ask; how the hell do you come to such a conclusion? Please, in all seriousness, I must have missed something over the past year that indicates that what you are saying has any truth to it. Care to provide examples?

You are taking on negative karma by this stance whether you want to admit it or not.

Says who? I don't remember being given a guidebook to reality that tells me definitively about such spiritual matters? There is lots of speculation, and that is it. I could easily say that you are actually the one taking on negative karma for your stance, whether you admit it or not. What do we really know in the context of such things?

And... what is the deal with all the rightwingers amongst the alt-spirituality community? I recall a comment a couple months ago by a commenter at Michael Prescott's blog where he said something to the effect of, "Wow, your (wrong) views about the pandemic make me wonder if you're wrong about everything else, too." Of course, being wrong about one thing doesn't mean you're wrong about everything else... but I do think it's necessary to take a step back and reevaluate the soundness of our own, and other's, reasoning when we find we have made a grave error. And, DAMN, is there a lot of poor reasoning and willingness to entertain utterly foolish and stupid ideas when time is of the essence and sound action needs to be taken. You disagree with BLM? Fine. That doesn't mean the pandemic is fake. You disagree with defunding the police? Fine. That doesn't mean that Bill Gates wants to put nanobots in your bloodstream.

I agree with your comment about taking steps back, I frequently do it as a check. But you seem to be accusing others of the very same thing you are actually doing. How do you know that pandemic isn't planned, eh? How do you know that Bill Gates doesn't want to put some kind of technology into our bloodstream that will have adverse affects? I believe these things because my intuition tells me that is what is happening, from all the evidence and data so far. It is just so obvious that something is at the very least, FISHY.
 
How do you know that pandemic isn't planned, eh? How do you know that Bill Gates doesn't want to put some kind of technology into our bloodstream that will have adverse affects? I believe these things because my intuition tells me that is what is happening, from all the evidence and data so far. It is just so obvious that something is at the very least, FISHY.
"All' the evidence and data so far supports your intuition that the pandemic is a planned op and that Gates wants to harm people by putting tech in our bloodstreams?
 
Yes. Do you have something to add?
Sure. I don't see how any reasonable person can conclude that "all evidence and data" supports the conspiracy theory line of thinking. I certainly get how one's intuition can lead them to see things as "fishy" as you put it, but your statement that I quoted seems beyond the pale of logic and rational thinking.
 
I keep an open mind, but I have to ask; how the hell do you come to such a conclusion? Please, in all seriousness, I must have missed something over the past year that indicates that what you are saying has any truth to it. Care to provide examples?

I'd say it began sometime around this: https://www.cnn.com/videos/media/20...-coronavirus-common-cold-gupta-sot-ip-vpx.cnn

Says who? I don't remember being given a guidebook to reality that tells me definitively about such spiritual matters? There is lots of speculation, and that is it. I could easily say that you are actually the one taking on negative karma for your stance, whether you admit it or not. What do we really know in the context of such things?

You're right, none of us were given a guidebook to reality. That's why communities like Skeptiko exist (or, so I thought) - for seekers to delve deep into whatever evidence is out there to help us grovel our way out of the darkness and hopefully toward greater light. There's 458 episodes of seeking just here with Skeptiko and a pretty long-lasting community and thriving forum, not including all the books and podcasts and blogs and websites of other folks out there who have sought. There's IANDS and NDERF and near-death.com. There's a veritable cottage industry of spiritual writing going on via Kindle Unlimited. Not to brag or boast, but I've studied this stuff for over 15 years now. If I can't make heads or tails of what's moral in light of what I've been studying all this time, then I guess it's time to pack it in and throw everything out... just sit around and wait to die and find out for myself. Maybe with COVID so prevalent, that won't be such a long time! But, c'mon, we all know that's not how life works. We look for the best information we can find. We try very hard to think about it in a reasonable way. Then, we take action on the knowledge that we have hopefully acquired from all that searching and reasoning. If IANDS starts filling up with NDE's where the experiencers start saying, "I saw a being of awesome love and light and it said, "LET EVERYONE DIE OF COVID! ANYONE WHO TRIES TO STOP THE DEATH AND DEVASTATION IS OF THE DARKNESS AND IS EVIL! IT'S ALL BILL GATES' FAULT!" Then I'll take a step back and rethink my stance and eat my hat.

I agree with your comment about taking steps back, I frequently do it as a check. But you seem to be accusing others of the very same thing you are actually doing. How do you know that pandemic isn't planned, eh? How do you know that Bill Gates doesn't want to put some kind of technology into our bloodstream that will have adverse affects? I believe these things because my intuition tells me that is what is happening, from all the evidence and data so far. It is just so obvious that something is at the very least, FISHY.

I'm not a Christian anymore, but there was a Christian philosopher I really enjoyed named Dallas Willard. I once heard Willard say, "Sometimes we must doubt our beliefs and believe our doubts... but eventually we have to doubt our doubts and believe our beliefs."

I've studied this stuff for 15 years or more. I've sought long and hard. I've thought long and hard about who I am, how I ought to live, and done so in the context of various spiritual traditions and all this parapsychological/paranormal/extended consciousness studies stuff. I was a younger man when I started and I was humbler then and often refrained from taking a decisive stance back then out of uncertainty and fear that I might be wrong. I believe my beliefs now. God help me, I believe my beliefs - finally!
 
Philemon is wrong. The risk to lives increased by the lockdowns and mask mandates. The evidence can fill books. He's just acting as a shill... easy to spot. Best to put him on the ignore list (like I have done)... the best feature on this (and many) forums). The culprit for killing people and destroying lives of those who have survived is the draconian lockdown measures and death by face covering.

So if Philemon is actually capable of critical thinking, then one has to wonder about his motivations for making the posts he makes? If not, then he's just exhibiting ignorance... like Sophia when she created the demiurge - The Secret Book of John
 
But you seem to be accusing others of the very same thing you are actually doing. How do you know that pandemic isn't planned, eh? How do you know that Bill Gates doesn't want to put some kind of technology into our bloodstream that will have adverse affects? I believe these things because my intuition tells me that is what is happening, from all the evidence and data so far. It is just so obvious that something is at the very least, FISHY.

DITTO!!! and spot on!
 
Philemon is wrong. The risk to lives increased by the lockdowns and mask mandates. The evidence can fill books. He's just acting as a shill... easy to spot. Best to put him on the ignore list (like I have done)... the best feature on this (and many) forums). The culprit for killing people and destroying lives of those who have survived is the draconian lockdown measures and death by face covering.

So if Philemon is actually capable of critical thinking, then one has to wonder about his motivations for making the posts he makes? If not, then he's just exhibiting ignorance... like Sophia when she created the demiurge - The Secret Book of John
That's some intellectual rigor there. Just keep putting people on ignore. Nothing like a full on bias-confirming seeker, huh?
 
Sure. I don't see how any reasonable person can conclude that "all evidence and data" supports the conspiracy theory line of thinking. I certainly get how one's intuition can lead them to see things as "fishy" as you put it, but your statement that I quoted seems beyond the pale of logic and rational thinking.

Well that's just the thing; I don't see how any reasonable person can conclude that there isn't something fishy going on. Perhaps we share the same kind of frustration in that, we honestly cannot see the others viewpoint and believe that they can hold their position in all seriousness. I'm sure there's something interesting to be found there if we look at ourselves and the way our brain is telling us this information. How can it be that we come to two very different conclusions based on the same data?



I don't understand.

I was wanting to know how you personally came to conclude that people not wearing masks and not social distancing was dangerous to others and that these kinds of people were on the wrong side of the issue. What is your thought process?


Philemon said:
You're right, none of us were given a guidebook to reality. That's why communities like Skeptiko exist (or, so I thought) - for seekers to delve deep into whatever evidence is out there to help us grovel our way out of the darkness and hopefully toward greater light. There's 458 episodes of seeking just here with Skeptiko and a pretty long-lasting community and thriving forum, not including all the books and podcasts and blogs and websites of other folks out there who have sought. There's IANDS and NDERF and near-death.com. There's a veritable cottage industry of spiritual writing going on via Kindle Unlimited. Not to brag or boast, but I've studied this stuff for over 15 years now. If I can't make heads or tails of what's moral in light of what I've been studying all this time, then I guess it's time to pack it in and throw everything out... just sit around and wait to die and find out for myself. Maybe with COVID so prevalent, that won't be such a long time! But, c'mon, we all know that's not how life works. We look for the best information we can find. We try very hard to think about it in a reasonable way. Then, we take action on the knowledge that we have hopefully acquired from all that searching and reasoning. If IANDS starts filling up with NDE's where the experiencers start saying, "I saw a being of awesome love and light and it said, "LET EVERYONE DIE OF COVID! ANYONE WHO TRIES TO STOP THE DEATH AND DEVASTATION IS OF THE DARKNESS AND IS EVIL! IT'S ALL BILL GATES' FAULT!" Then I'll take a step back and rethink my stance and eat my hat.



I'm not a Christian anymore, but there was a Christian philosopher I really enjoyed named Dallas Willard. I once heard Willard say, "Sometimes we must doubt our beliefs and believe our doubts... but eventually we have to doubt our doubts and believe our beliefs."

I've studied this stuff for 15 years or more. I've sought long and hard. I've thought long and hard about who I am, how I ought to live, and done so in the context of various spiritual traditions and all this parapsychological/paranormal/extended consciousness studies stuff. I was a younger man when I started and I was humbler then and often refrained from taking a decisive stance back then out of uncertainty and fear that I might be wrong. I believe my beliefs now. God help me, I believe my beliefs - finally!

I don't think we are too far apart in the way we see things. Where we separate I think, is that I don't really think if we get this COVID thing wrong, that we'll be judged for it in the way that you think, in our afterlife review. I'd question the credibility of such a being if they dared to suggest that I had somehow gotten it wrong and that I was to be punished for it in some way. Quite frankly, I'd want to tell that being to f**k off. How is one supposed to trust an entity or system that drops you in a world where you have amnesia about your true spiritual self, fling a million different religious teachings and conditioning at you, along with the way our world generally is and how our limited brains work, and then expect us to figure out what's what? In all seriousness, I think they'd understand the predicament we are all in and cut us some slack.

If I'm wrong about my stance on COVID, I'd happily come back here and admit I was wrong. I actually hope to, because then the world isn't as dark as it appears to me right now.
 
My "money" is on you, diverdown.

Yes, the demiurge (thanks to Sophia's ignorance and actions), has indeed created quite an interesting gameworld for us sparks of divinity. If I died today, I would waltz through my life review all because I done the life review "work" up until this moment. My conscience is clean.

In fact, I am doing my part to assist the bugger and his misguided mom with their own redemption!
 
Well that's just the thing; I don't see how any reasonable person can conclude that there isn't something fishy going on. Perhaps we share the same kind of frustration in that, we honestly cannot see the others viewpoint and believe that they can hold their position in all seriousness. I'm sure there's something interesting to be found there if we look at ourselves and the way our brain is telling us this information. How can it be that we come to two very different conclusions based on the same data?
Oh I think it's fishy. But that's a perception. I can't say for certain that it's anything more than a real virus that naturally occured and humans are now behaving in very human ways. I'm reading you to be saying something more definitive than that. That's the leap that I don't think can be made .
 
If this is a ‘plandemic’, there are some very unlikely allies participating in the con globally. This is enough for me to all but dismiss it without a further waste of my consideration.
 
How can it be that we come to two very different conclusions based on the same data
That's one of the most important questions ever asked.

It is relevant to any topic, not just the stuff which gets discussed on this forum. I think that it is easy to assume that there is some sort of absolute truth out there and we're all looking for it, but some of us are right while others of us are wrong. But that way of looking at things misses something important. It omits our own self. Each of us has a creativity in manufacturing a concept of reality. There is no absolute. There is only our own creativity.

Once we can recognise that we are active participants in creating a view of the world, rather than seekers for some fixed truth, then we can take hold of that understanding and use it.

It then means we don't need to live in a dark or oppressive world, since that is just our created concept. If we enjoy feeling oppressed, then we can continue that path. If we would rather experience light and freedom, we can move towards that path.

Some of these things can be done instantly, in a split second. But, we are creatures of habit. Making a choice in one moment does not guarantee what will happen in the next, since old long-established habits will re-assert themselves. But over time, we can choose. Recognise we create our view of the world and choose how we will use that ability.
 
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