Mod+ 228. Mary Rodwell Advocates for Alien Contactees

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Frank Matera

Pertaining to scientific evidence, I am aware of none, except perhaps through the work of people like Dr. Roger Leir, who claims to have removed artificial implants from patients. But again, said objects have not been designed with a technological finesse beyond the military's darkest capabilities. Moreover, if Dr. Leir thinks he has definite proof that the implants he has removed are without doubt non-terrestrial, then surelly he would publish his findings in peer-reviewed scientific journals, a Great Debate would ensue, and, if found accurate, Dr. Leir's findings would change the face of science, society, and government. Obviously, this has not happened.

Therefore I would suggest that researchers work their collective butts off to establish factualness, the single most important aspect of alien abduction: namely, its objective reality, whether Black Ops/hidden government or truly non-terrestrial contact. Minus proof of the phenomenon, all other talk is rather pointless, because it assumes abduction's reality - but assumes it without proof.
It may have been lost in this thread but there was the video I posted which showed the abductee who woke claiming to have an alien having intercourse with him.. and embedded in his penis were the 2 hair fibres. He gave his account on what happened including the description (blone, tall, extremely milky white skin) and then had the fibres removed and sent to a laboratory for a DNA sample. The DNA was found to be one of the rarest form of hjumans only found in Mongolia and was one of the farthest removed from current human DNA. It also matched with what he claimed to see... in that it came from a tall, blonde haired female with extremely white skin.

What was interesting though was that DNA did not match the pigmentation of the skin didn't make sense... in that you would normally see it in aboriginal or extremely dark humans where they don't have as much need to be protected from the sun. In this case though the DNA came from someone with extremely pale white skin. This is of course where UFO investigators can put 2 + 2 together and say they could not have been from this planet... because the planet they were from must have been several light years further away from the sun than us and their bodies did not require protection.

It may not be "definitive proof" but it is evidence and is out there.
 
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Sciborg_S_Patel

I think there are at least three two facets to the abduction stuff:

1) Is there a way to examine the phenomenon via objective evidence?

2) Assuming the subjective experience occurred, what does it mean?

Seems to me the first is the purview of the materialist skeptic, the second the purview of everyone else. I think it's possible to wonder about both, but I don't think the lack of a satisfying answer to the first means we should stop discussing the second.

(I don't know what to make of the pubic hairs by the way, I'll have to read up on that.)
 
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chuck.drake

It may have been lost in this thread but there was the video I posted which showed the abductee who woke claiming to have an alien having intercourse with him.. and embedded in his penis were the 2 hair fibres. He gave his account on what happened including the description (blone, tall, extremely milky white skin) and then had the fibres removed and sent to a laboratory for a DNA sample. The DNA was found to be one of the rarest form of hjumans only found in Mongolia and was one of the farthest removed from current human DNA. It also matched with what he claimed to see... in that it came from a tall, blonde haired female with extremely white skin.

What was interesting though was that DNA did not match the pigmentation of the skin didn't make sense... in that you would normally see it in aboriginal or extremely dark humans where they don't have as much need to be protected from the sun. In this case though the DNA came from someone with extremely pale white skin. This is of course where UFO investigators can put 2 + 2 together and say they could not have been from this planet... because the planet they were from must have been several light years further away from the sun than us and their bodies did not require protection.

It may not be "definitive proof" but it is evidence and is out there.
I've heard this encounter a number of times. This is a more complete version of the story:

http://www.auforn.com/Bill_Chalker_35.htm

For some reason I can't explain this story always raises my skeptical hackles more that most. I would like to see the DNA report along with some independent analysis confirming the conclusion about the mismatch between the hair type and the skin pigmentation. As well as confirmation that this combination isn't likely to occur on Earth. What if the person who the hair came from was simply 50% of each race by their natural parents? Might not that combination occur?

This is always the story that Ben and Aaron pull out on Mysterious Universe when they want a chuckle. Maybe that fuels my suspicion about this one.
 
F

Frank Matera

I've heard this encounter a number of times. This is a more complete version of the story:

http://www.auforn.com/Bill_Chalker_35.htm

For some reason I can't explain this story always raises my skeptical hackles more that most. I would like to see the DNA report along with some independent analysis confirming the conclusion about the mismatch between the hair type and the skin pigmentation. As well as confirmation that this combination isn't likely to occur on Earth. What if the person who the hair came from was simply 50% of each race by their natural parents? Might not that combination occur?

This is always the story that Ben and Aaron pull out on Mysterious Universe when they want a chuckle. Maybe that fuels my suspicion about this one.

This is a very detailed account of the DNA analysis. Bill Chalker is a serious scientist.

http://www.ufoesa.com/peter-khoury-experiences-1992-pt9.html

I note at the end he states this. Looks like he is happy to make the copies of the DNA testing available to those who are serious researchers.

This research was conducted on private funds (A$5,000) and in a private laboratory, without outside support. APEG is a professional scientific group with no outside ties. Its members wish to remain anonymous for now. Copies of a video tape on which the alien hair appears by darkfield microscopy, as well as copies of the alien DNA sequences which were cloned into plasmids, have been made and may be made available to serious researchers on request and where appropriate.

Contact Peter: UFOESA, P.O Box 191, Regents Park, NSW 2141
 
Great discussion! I'd like to wade in here on a couple points. First, I'm a psychotherapist and marriage and family therapist researching this very subject. Actually anomalous phenomenon, which includes a broad spectrum of what people are calling "paranormal" experiences these days. Alien abduction, however, particularly fascinates me. I've been working with a small group of international abductees and provide support for this subset on the East Coast. I've also developed an inventory called the APAI (Anomalous and Paranormal Activity Inventory) to collect data on the family system types of people reporting these variety of experiences. If you'd like, you can get a look at that here: http://www.spr.ac.uk/main/news/anomalous-and-paranormal-activity-inventory

-Surprisingly, nobody's examined the family angle, at least in depth. Essentially, I come at this from a systems angle, which proposes the phenomenon is an expression of a system undergoing change. Basically that means the experiences could be part of a larger collective experience, meta-phenomenon where the greater system is adapting to express and resolve unresolved crisis, as well as transform the conscious whole. In short, this means nobody else in the field has a stinking clue as to where I'm coming from.

True. But what does the subjective, purely internal, "mystical" claim made earlier by Jules, actually indicate? Certainly it's wonderful material for psychologists, especially Jungians (of whose work Dr. Mack was very fond). But a purely psychological experience cannot be considered scientifically valid unless it is supported by physical evidence. How does such material "get an airing" - outside of books like Mack's, Striebers, and similar others?
This is exactly where the field seems stuck. Science demands more evidence and researchers continue collecting and proclaiming the value of subjective experience. This dilemma, of course, isn't limited to alien abduction research, but reflects most if not all phenomenon operating outside the present material paradigm. My point is why on earth are we struggling around this point in the research? So what if science can't validate these experiences, science can't validate experience period. These anomalous experiences and their transformative effects exist nonetheless. Furthermore, the tension that results from these two conflicting viewpoints within our culture continues to serve and stretch our collective perspective. That can be measured, so why hasn't this function been given it's due? To me, acknowledging this position deflates the sense of conflict inherent in these two opposing viewpoints. It suggests the system may be doing exactly what it's supposed to, it's evolving. Is that more threatening than validating any non-material paradigm?
 
nobody's examined the family angle, at least in depth. Essentially, I come at this from a systems angle, which proposes the phenomenon is an expression of a system undergoing change.
cool... but to get to this Jungian kinda stuff we have to start with the more mundane... e.g. intially researchers we very relucatant to claims of inter-generational abductions, but this is now accepted as the norm. what does this mean? how far back does it go (Jacobs claims to have traced it 4 generations)?
 
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chuck.drake

I'm currently e-mailing with a woman whose family has an inter-generational history of the OBE, going back at least to her grandparents. And she also has some abduction experiences and some experiences that begin as with an OBE and then within that state she is taken or encounters the other.
 
I'm currently e-mailing with a woman whose family has an inter-generational history of the OBE, going back at least to her grandparents. And she also has some abduction experiences and some experiences that begin as with an OBE and then within that state she is taken or encounters the other.
I think most psychic stuff runs in families. Its been there in many generations of my family.
 
cool... but to get to this Jungian kinda stuff we have to start with the more mundane... e.g. intially researchers we very relucatant to claims of inter-generational abductions, but this is now accepted as the norm. what does this mean? how far back does it go (Jacobs claims to have traced it 4 generations)?
I agree, Alex. And I get what you're laying down here, castles in the sand.... We always have to have a starting point. That's why I'm examining the family systems producing these types of experiences. Perhaps a pattern will emerge in the types of structures, relationships, or hierarchies of the families involved and bigger inferences can be made. Right now there's simply not enough good information about the family dynamics to understand the nature of the multigenerational link -although the motif appears to be pretty common with these narratives. I certainly run into it all the time.

-But of course there's still the fundamental issue of the experiences we have to deal with. And right now we don't have a paradigm for them to exist! Which brings me to my larger point - which actually isn't Jungian, but may read Jungian. It's a bit more subtle. We can continue to collect data, but the data ultimately works in the same way the phenomenon does. It leads us in circles. It crosses boundaries, breaks rules, and defies capture and classification. But if you talk to abductees, and I do, you often get an opposite effect. They appear to UNDERSTAND. This to me seems a pretty valid point. Or course those of us raised in the material paradigm continue to push for evidence and answers, we want something to consume, but the phenomenon doesn't appear eager to give in to this demand. Vallee talked about this quite a bit. To me, this suggests there may be an aspect of this phenomenon we're simply overlooking. Understanding it may be more about the questions and less about the answers, and learning to value the cultural function it serves. What we do know is it transforms things.
 
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Great and civil discussion here. Enjoyed it very much. My gosh it is hard to reconcile some of the observations inside this subject arena. Unfortunately, despite my desire to add something of value, I simply have not studied this subject enough to do so. But I just had to comment upon three of the skeptic position points:

1. No one can mention the words 'quantum mechanics' unless you have studied Quantum Mechanics. Good to know.
2. The scientific method starts with evidential proof. Also good to know, as that will save me lots of money over this burdensome 'observation,' 'necessity,' and 'problem formulation' baloney we have been laboring under all these years. Since only 5% of science ends in 'proof' even after decades of application content, we can now dispense with 95% of the baloney and not have to work as hard. Also good to know.
3. If I get abducted by aliens, I should keep quiet about it, otherwise it is no longer an observation - but is a 'claim' and to make a claim is a no-no. Keep it to yourself, because that improves the process of science. A third gem in the mix and good to know.

I have added these pearls of wisdom into my professional notes. Enjoyed the discourse very much and look forward to being here. :)
 
1. No one can mention the words 'quantum mechanics' unless you have studied Quantum Mechanics. Good to know.
Perhaps we need a test where everyone using the expression for the first time on the forum, would be asked to solve one of the (rather few) exactly soluble QM problems:)

Then we could extend the concept:

Anyone claiming that someone was delusional or confabulating, etc. would be given a psychology exam.

Anyone discussing the physiology of resuscitation would be given a medical exam.

Anyone discussing hallucinatory drugs would be given a neurology exam (or a jail sentence)!

David
 
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Which brings me to my larger point - which actually isn't Jungian, but may read Jungian. It's a bit more subtle. We can continue to collect data, but the data ultimately works in the same way the phenomenon does. It leads us in circles. It crosses boundaries, breaks rules, and defies capture and classification. But if you talk to abductees, and I do, you often get an opposite effect. They appear to UNDERSTAND. This to me seems a pretty valid point. Or course those of us raised in the material paradigm continue to push for evidence and answers, we want something to consume, but the phenomenon doesn't appear eager to give in to this demand. Vallee talked about this quite a bit. To me, this suggests there may be an aspect of this phenomenon we're simply overlooking. Understanding it may be more about the questions and less about the answers, and learning to value the cultural function it serves. What we do know is it transforms things.
It does read Jungian :) not sure I totally agree with this point... I mean, there are a lot of people who UNDERSTAND. a lot of fundamentalist religious people UNDERSTAND, but some of that understanding doesn't hold up under scrutiny. then again, who's scrutiny. I mean, fundamentalist Muslims don't owe me any explanations... but it gets to the point... if we're gonna play this game where we're pretending the we can get to a point of UNDERSTANDING (i.e. if I'm gonna play the Skeptiko game) then I'm inclined to lean on the tools of science and reason as a counterweight to revelation and UNDERSTANDING.
 
As someone who has experienced several OBE's, I find it interesting that the abductee experience begins with sleep paralysis. My OBE's begin with that as well. I learned to recognize this as a signal, push through the fear, and continue on to the OBE. I could never "control" where I went. At first there were "hands" helping me out, later, I simply became aware of the vibrations and left...sometimes walking through walls, other times speeding down a dark tunnel, and arriving at a place of light....where I interacted with various beings. These experiences always involve a distortion of time. The experience seems to last forever, yet when I return and look at the clock, the time is only some minutes later from when the experience began.
 
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