Mod+ 233. MARY RODWELL WHICH EXTRAORDINARY HUMAN EXPERIENCES MATTER

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by alex.tsakiris, Dec 17, 2013.

  1. Larry

    Larry Member

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    The Dark side as it were, is all of the aspects of ourselves individually and collectively that we disavow. The problem is that it becomes autonomous and has a life of its own – a spirit complex if you will. If we don’t face it and transform it, we’ll project it outward onto the tribe over the hill or onto anything that threatens our worldview/identity, such as the skeptics or the believers.
    If we demonize our natural instincts they can possess us and we may act out their agenda as with pedophile priests.
    I agree there’s not much to learn from evil in itself because it’s ultimately an illusion of our creation although I think it’s imperative that we understand it. The Buddhists would agree with you: evil is really just acting out of ignorance and we need to wake up or “look up” which isn’t always so easy.
     
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  2. Alex

    Alex New

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    ok... but do you mean that in the "everything is an illusion" way, or in a "there are no such thing as demons/malevolent spirits" way?
     
  3. Larry

    Larry Member

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    I think "the good" is the ultimate reality but in the human realm, our task is to transform evil to the good by recognizing that it is an illusion.
     
  4. mattvw

    mattvw New

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    I am new to this forum, blog and form of "community". So please forgive any "blonde" moments. I've been inspired, listening to 8 - 10 of Alex's podcasts and wanted to wade in but haven't found the thread that made sense. I've read the 5 pages of thread here and want to comment somewhat in general on a couple items that stand out in my mind. The 1st is one that I've wondered about with Alex and now reading more threads about many here. It seems the conversation is from the outside looking in. Are people in this forum talking about "energetic" experiences without having had any? From the comments it seems to me that many on this forum would have had some kind of experience not easily explainable by their own logic that opens them up to the possibility to things which might not be as they seem. The 2nd thing that gets me is why does anyone want to be accepted by the mainstream science? It seems so openly corrupted and politicized that I can't imagine you'd want something that is important to be bastardized by the nod of acceptance from the annointed (those who qualify for the various grants and funding). The money that propels them forward (grants and other government money) ends up trapping them in the accepted political speech the group adopts. Their creativity is then captured and funneled down the constricting artery of their future. Cancer "research" is a good example of this.

    There's more but I'm not sure if this is on point or of interest to the topic.
     
  5. Judith

    Judith New

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    I have had OBE's, one NDE, a few pre-cognitive dreams and some other "psi" experiences. I come from a family of scientists (mother biology teacher, father and grandfather MD's). I also married a Ph.D. scientist. I know the scientific view of things. I don't look to scientists to explain my experiences. I am personally aware of how mainstream science is corrupted and politicized. My husband died from cancer, and I fully agree with your comments on "cancer research".
     
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  6. mattvw

    mattvw New

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    Wow, Judith you embody what I was trying to say. I've had multiple spiritual experiences and other non explanatory observations. This very much paints how I see and encounter the world. I have very little patience for skeptics that aren't willing to embrace another viewpoint, try it on and then discard it, if it doesn't work. This then paints much of my world overview. My wife and I home schooled our daughters because we didn't agree with this group agenda, curriculum or system we send our kids through. This awareness of something outside my logic that seems to be running effects almost everything I do.

    This then brings into view a bigger issue for me. Can we ever do anything outside of our own belief or viewpoint? Can we ever do anything for anyone else outside our own self interest? Personally, I don't believe we can, but this then begs the question, can we really ever take on someone else's views? Finding if something fits into the scientific model then doesn't necessarily make it true. It can mean that we now believe it but it's not necessarily true. So how far should anyone look into anything? Well, as far as they think they need to for their own selfish reasons (selfish not in a bad way but in that we do things to fill our own needs). So how far "should" something like hypnotherapy be taken? In my belief, I don't care to prove anything with it, I care to make people better with it. So if Mary's Rodwell's clients get better (how you measure this is important) with hypnotherapy, does anything else really matter? We can wait for science to tell us that our beliefs are "right" but then what does that really give you? You get funding that then influences the whole subject.

    You don't need to look any further than the differences between Mary Rodwell and Dr Jacobs. Listening to his interview, it was clear that he's a technician and scientist. I thought it was also clear that he would like to be the one that sets the standard for how hypnotherapy and alien encounter research "should" be done. If I were to extrapolate I'd say that he wanted the power of controlling the subject - heady stuff. I don't think Mary is a scientist but she approached her work methodically so she brings in a scientific method or viewpoint but allows her own personal curiosity to take her technical work into an art form. I think science as art or art as science, is paradoxical and personally I believe that's were the juice is.
     
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  7. Dmitch

    Dmitch New

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    Yes Ian, as long as your passion to know truth is greater then your desire to survive. Total ego death while on earth is the price and I don't think anyone here wants that, myself included.
     
  8. Dmitch

    Dmitch New

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    I have a problem in that Schwartz's medium presents a paradox. While in the 'other' place the soul/personality is in a somewhat enlightened state. There is no fear, anxiety, desire. There is only god's love. The soul is then re-cast in this 3D realm and over the course of earthly development becomes self absorbed, cruel, intolerant, hateful, violent and petty Those are traits we all become enmeshed in to some degree. What happened to the soul who lived as a loving enlightened being ? You mean to say Dr Mengele was really a spirit guide who experimented on my mother and thousands of others to promote growth and learning? There are some basic truths one must sacrifice to accept Schwartz's version of reality. One is the absence of love is not love.
     
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  9. Ian Gordon

    Ian Gordon Ninshub Member

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    Dmitch, I suggest you read a book of his. In part, I'm too lazy to go through the book and bring out all the quotes that would summarize those answers neatly! One of them is the "learning by contrast" concepts. I know you're coming at this from a well-meaning place, but I've seen several times on this forum people react to these ideas with these questions coming from their own reactions (how can this be? etc. etc.), or philosophical inquiries, without starting and staying with the actual data. People are free to do what they want on a forum, but I find that a waste time, personally. If you read the book (try the first one), I would venture the answers to your questions will be clear. (Then I would willingly discuss them with you! :))

    Btw, the data Schwartz gathered from the work he did with mediums is no different than a lot of data coming from other places, NDEs, etc. So it's not "his" "version of reality". The "Earth school" concept is frequently encountered in NDEs: "souls" choose their genetics, environment, etc., are amnesiac and are in a lower-vibrational physical realm, so that from the get-go they are not incarnations of "Love" - never mind what happens to them as the grind of life goes on. Or check out Nanci Danison's NDE download of souls entering a human animal, which is a selfish, completely separate (and perishable) being. Monroe's take, through OBE and astral travel, on humanity and reincarnation in Far Journeys, is essentially very similar (and pretty Hobbesian!): humans are out for survival (to a large extent). In fact, I don't know through what "data" you find an opposed view: that incarnate humans are creatures of Love.
     
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  10. Dmitch

    Dmitch New

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    Dear Ian, This forum has covered some of the most astounding topics possible, thanks to Skeptiko. It has enriched my life and reinvigorated my focus on spiritual matters. I neglected to thank you for including the videos. I watched both and appreciate you sharing them. All of us are challenged by what to consider as 'data' considering so much of what were reading, listening is anedoltal. I understand when Alex uses it, as scientific data. I'd even consider preponderance of referred experiences which seem to fit pieces of a grand puzzle. However, I want to also not become sucked in by it. Each of us has our own experiences which shape our perceptions but I remain open to what is being discussed. I will get the book, it seems interesting.
     
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  11. Ian Gordon

    Ian Gordon Ninshub Member

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    Definitely.
    Great. :) Personally, independent of the degree as to what in there is in the end accurate or not, it's one of the most "spiritually" (definite that word as you will ;)) rewarding books I've read. And I've heard about a lot of other readers who have had that experience with it as well.

    (One of them, I noticed, being NDE researcher Melvin Morse, quoted here after his troubles and arrest: Pauline and I see this as one of our lessons of love. The book Your Soul's Plan, by Robert Schwartz is very essential to us at this time, and Pauline and I are reading it out loud to each other
    http://nhneneardeath.ning.com/forum/topics/dr-melvin-morse-arrested )
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2013
  12. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    I completely agree that science has become badly corrupted. For me the list includes Big Pharma and environmental science ( 'Climate change'), and the stupid claim that evolution is understood at present, to name but three. There are almost certainly some other areas, but it requires a lot of work to be sure.

    However, to answer your second point, a lot of us are interested in science and in how spiritual experiences fit into the scientific picture. Remember, an organisation can be corrupt, but that doesn't imply that all its members are corrupt!

    I am certainly looking at all this from the outside, in that I haven't really had any experience worth discussing, so since I am getting on in years, maybe my first one will be the big one at the end of life - who knows! However, it is possible to become more or less convinced that consciousness is non-physical from scientific considerations alone.

    David
     
  13. Alex

    Alex New

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    Hi Mattvw... welcome... I think this is very much "on point" :) I think you'll find many "experiencers" (of different kinds) on this forum. I am on the very low-end of such a scale, but even I have had glimpses of the greater reality. But much of what we wind up doing here is putting a lot of the pure experience stuff to the side and approaching these topics from a logic/reason/science perspective in order to see where that takes us. There are some practical reasons for this. Consider one guest I had on who told me that his experience told him that reincarnation is not very common and a "choice" that few follow. Another guest told me that we reincarnate 3 times. Another told me we have many, many lives and we can re-expereicne them under hypnosis. Who is right? How can we decide? The tools (as opposed to the institution) of science might be a fun way to explore this.
     
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  14. Ian Gordon

    Ian Gordon Ninshub Member

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    Good post, Alex. I like the way you phrased how the tools of science "might" be a "fun" way to explore this, as these tools definitely have value but at the same time can only take us so far, IMO.
     
  15. Dmitch

    Dmitch New

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    A skeptic would certainly point to these inconsistencies as false or delusional viewpoints. I'm not here to find replicable facts or convince anyone of some fact or data. We have nothing physically to hold onto. Rather it's to openly explore what possibilities can explain our experience or intuitions. There needs to be a something very personal such as an experience or experiences to propel an individual to continue to question what more there is. The intricacies of this other reality is not allowing itself to be easily definable within the context of how Skeptiko guests are defining it, no matter what they claim to know. As to alien visitations, it almost seems easier to tease out some basic facts since it is a 3D experience in the natural universe.
     
  16. mattvw

    mattvw New

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    Thanks for your thoughts David. I’m very happy to hear that one can, “become more or less convinced that consciousness is non-physical from scientific considerations alone.” That is one of the more hopeful things I’ve heard in a long time.

    Yeah, I think that science can get corrupted but the veracity of the scientific method either works or it doesn't and politics can't change that. I am a big fan of solid logic and then I’m open to many mysteries as I believe we only see a pinhead of information as to what’s really going on. I’m a 40 year meditator so I have a hard time imagining being open to the idea that consciousness could be nonphysical, without having had a glimpse of it. I really appreciate you taking the time to communicate that.

    Matt
     
  17. mattvw

    mattvw New

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    You say, “A skeptic would certainly point to these inconsistencies as false or delusional viewpoints. I'm not here to find replicable facts or convince anyone of some fact or data. We have nothing physically to hold onto. Rather it's to openly explore what possibilities can explain our experience or intuitions.”

    I love much of what you said above Dmitch. That last sentence, “Rather it's to openly explore what possibilities can explain our experience or intuitions.” I would tweak. I’m not trying to be nitpicky here but for me this is very important how I frame this or in what context I approach it from. Yes I have had many “experiences or intuitions” but I believe they are not the same perceptics that we normally process through the brain. Thus I believe the trap is putting too much veracity in trying to explain them. I have found my mind to be a very tricky thing and it will try to loop me into a verification process of explanation that is counterproductive to the experience. The end result sometimes is that I minimize it or in some other way judge it and make it less real. There are other ways to track it, in my experience.

    One other thing you said I would have agreed with as well “There needs to be a something very personal such as an experience or experiences to propel an individual to continue to question what more there is.” I would now have to say that maybe that isn’t true. Another forum member, David Bailey, said to me a couple communications earlier in this thread, “I am certainly looking at all this from the outside, in that I haven't really had any experience worth discussing, so since I am getting on in years, maybe my first one will be the big one at the end of life - who knows! However, it is possible to become more or less convinced that consciousness is non-physical from scientific considerations alone.” What do you think of that idea?
     
  18. mattvw

    mattvw New

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    Hey Judith, first, being married for over 20 years now, I can't imagine losing my wife. I am sorry for your loss.

    My wife lost a dear friend this last month who had been fighting cancer for a few years. I have lost dear friends as well. I have been brought in as an advocate in a couple different hospital situations so am a little hyper aware of stupidity in medicine. I have also seen inspiring work, though frankly that's more rare than I would hope. I don't think Obamacare is going to do this problem any good.

    I say all of the above because I would be curious as to some of your experiences dealing with the great bureaucracy you had to wrestle. I totally understand, if now is not the time nor the place. I think people would be shocked, if they realized how often there are mistakes in hospital situations. For my part, I believe the docs might be decent scientists (though I don't really believe it) but often their basic logic sucks. They can run test after test and give drug after drug but if someone isn't there watching closely you won't realize that they are linking actions that don't make sense and are counter productive. At this point I believe a hospital is a dangerous place to be. If they know exactly what's going on, usually no problem but if they don't, be careful.
     
  19. Dmitch

    Dmitch New

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    Thanks
    Thanks Mattvw, yes I think I understand the first paragraph. The other day I unexpectedly had an extraordinary feeling of expanding depth. I was sitting with my wife, with jacket on, waiting to leave the house and she was talking. It lasted only a moment but I wanted it to go on. Later sitting quietly I wanted to re-experience it and there was nothing there. The lack of spontaneity destroys it. We do that kind of thing. Try to incorporate experience, interpret it into something to give us some insight, but it now exists as memory and becomes a kind of stagnant knowledge which only strengthens our sense of the self.
    On the other reference, I suppose I made an assumption.
     
  20. mattvw

    mattvw New

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    Nice Dmitch, yeah I've had that experience as well. That also, for me, is often a point where words aren't good at describing the event or awareness. Sometimes later, I'll try to describe it and the words are like using a grey crayon to color the fall colors of the trees.

    Also you said, "On the other reference, I suppose I made an assumption". I made the same assumption. If I get nothing more out of my participation in this blog, I've gotten that. Now that I think of it though I have heard of it happening another time when Bruce Lipton changed his life while up planning to give a cellular biology presentation to his medical students only to prove to himself he was a spiritual being - and then changed his life all around. Great story, if you're not aware of him (http://www.brucelipton.com/about)
     
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