Mod+ 246. DR. MICHAEL GRAZIANO LIKENS NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE RESEARCH TO ASTROLOGY

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by alex.tsakiris, Jun 3, 2014.

  1. Dmitch

    Dmitch New

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    Consider the human zygote. It's actuality is in its potential, but it's reality is a small smidgen of protoplasm. One can watch it grow cell by cell, but hypothetically, if it becomes imbued with a spirit force. Does it also develop cell by cell? If there is such a thing as a soul. At what point does it coalesce? Must it develop a sense of itself to have consciousness?
    When does that Rubicon take place? We use the word rather loosely, but what does it mean?
     
  2. Dmitch

    Dmitch New

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    I don't think one can find a better example of the term 'group think'. Investigate? "I think pretty much most of my neuroscience colleagues would conclude that no, there are these experiences that are related to brain function. There is no mind or experience independent of the functioning of the brain." Dr Graziano.
     
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  3. ghost

    ghost New

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    It would seem that there are millions of people who experience the oddities of the paranormal, God, ghosts, grey aliens and a myriad of other peculiar experiences. Yet science and engineering are hopelessly incapable of coming up with a computer chip that can experience these same things. They don't even have a general idea. Yet there are any number of stories and personal eye-witness accounts that suggest the existence of disembodied entities. Then there is the similarity between the Higgs field (an invisible field that acts on everything) and ghosts (which act on people and physical objects). Oh, and don't forget that there is five times more dark matter than there is visible matter.

    My point is that we should remind that skeptics about all of these issues, frequently. I showed one of my co-workers a video of a metallic UFO flying along side an American fighter jet. He's a great guy, but he's still brainwashed by the skeptic community. When I showed him the video, he kind of yawned and said he had to get back to work.

    http://www.siriusdisclosure.com/evidence/bae-photos/
     
  4. Yeah, I saw a planetarium film on dark matter narrated by Tyson - visually it was gorgeous, but the explanation was really underwhelming. Even the people I was with, who lean far more to the materialist side, thought it was pretty much trying to justify why we could say anything about the universe after discovering we know so little about it.

    On the subject of aliens - I have to admit I'm surprised you're taking the Nuts and Bolts approach. I'd have figured you for a Jacque Vallee kinda guy. :)
     
  5. ghost

    ghost New

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    Why thank you. :)
     
  6. I am curious though - Vallee's idea that aliens are essentially the same entities as fairies (and as Hancock would argue, the same as DMT entities) also seems more in line with your conception of the Astral, at least as far as I can tell.

    For example, as long as we're going far off the beaten path, Teilhard has suggested that the conscious entities of earth will have to transcend their physical bodies as they move around space-time.

    As Grant Morrison once wrote, "If we really want to go into space, we'll have to leave our bodies behind."
    This would suggest older species have already gone through what - if you're an Iain Banks fan - you'd call Sublimation.

    Isn't this more in line with your Theosophical leanings? I'm not saying any of this is definite, but it seems to fit better with your conception of different "bodies" than hyperdrives. I had a book about Theosophy once and I distinctly recall it mentioning the exploration of reality via OBEs...though this was awhile back so maybe I missed something.

    Then again, the truth may lie somewhere between the "Nuts and Bolts" and "Transcendental Entities" positions or encompass them both :):

    Seeing into the Unseen: A Personal Journey of Discovery

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2014
  7. Dmitch

    Dmitch New

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    Investigating deeper into Dr. Graziano's background, works and theories, I find parts of them entirely plausible. Im not open to the reductionist solution to mystery, because his interview did not seem new or insightful. I also listened to the podcast 3xs to catch the nuance of his schema, as he calls it. We are flesh and bone and neurons and that's it. The brain creates the idea of self. It is a wondrous biochemical machine and has evolved over time to operate along certain pathways. Injure those pathways and the importance of the integration of these pathways become evident. Stroke can skew perception and destroy awareness everything left of center. Alzheimer's not only slowly robs one of memories but of awareness too and demonstrates how memories form personality. I think we have to give the fine doctor his due on presenting a philosophical framework how the biochemical process of consciousness occurs, but doesn't it just become another hypothesis? Im sure there are other ambitious Neuroscientists looking to publish alternate theories too. Some are not pleased he's presenting theories to the public without peer review and professional scrutiny. I wonder how Dr Graziano fleshed out his theory? Was it through ploddingly reformulating accepted notions of brain functions through monkey brain research or was it through diligent quiet observation of how his own thoughts occur? Did he have that moment of insight as did Einstein or Krishnamurti? Einstein's insight changed how we view the world and Krishnamurti proclaimed individual spiritual and psychological freedom. We often refer to the ghost in the machine for a reason. How does a biochemical machine discover something totally new? Can there be complete attention without the observer? There is of course the wealth of research that demonstrates that mystery does not only exist but is the fabric of existence.
     
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  8. ghost

    ghost New

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    The brain creates the idea of self to who or what? I want you to bottle up that "who or what", and put it on a computer chip. Do that, and you will be rich. Otherwise, it's just a neuroscientist pulling the wool over your eyes.
     
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  9. Graziano thinks we'll become immortal by uploading our brains:

    Endless fun

    I should have suspected he was one of those Singularity adherents from his bizzare position on consciousness. Lanier's critique is worth looking at, because it specifically targets this materialist religion:

    One Half A Manifesto, by Jaron Lanier

     
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  10. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    Clearly this is very unclear - but just as science in the past had to develop from within an incomplete framework (e.g. when the gas laws were worked out, nobody knew why different materials became gasses at different temperatures) - the understanding of consciousness needs to do the same.

    I am somewhat persuaded by the idea that everything living (not viruses) is conscious to a certain degree - some single cells chase food, try to evade capture, even it is claimed learn!

    Nevertheless, there is also a lot of research suggesting that reincarnation is real - which would suggest that there is a definite point at which the fetus is associated with a mind - that the mind doesn't just coalesce out of a lot of cell-minds.

    David
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2014
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  11. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    Alex,

    Do you think there is any way to persuade a skeptic into an open discussion about consciousness? I know you have a podcast with Donald Hoffman somewhere - didn't he have something more constructive to say?

    David
     
  12. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    Lanier's third point nails it for me:
    This, to me, is the essence of materialist fudge and obfuscation. Because many of them can't quite come out and say consciousness doesn't exist, they try to push it to the edge. Yet once you admit that consciousness exists, it clearly has to be important, and it is clearly meaningful to ask the question, "Can you explain consciousness?".

    David
     
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  13. Dmitch

    Dmitch New

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  14. mattvw

    mattvw New

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    1st Alex I wanted to say how masterfully I thought you handled that interview. I don't think there's much reason to be nasty, especially when you have the choice to end an interview early or not air it at all. You took him right to the edge of his tolerance to be challenged - to look at himself and the basic foundation of his assumptions, on air no less. Maybe, in the comfort of his home, without you asking him to look over the edge, he might wonder more deeply about his blindspots. What a kindness you would then have performed.

    I don't care much for a "chicken or the egg" argument and certainly would do my best not to get trapped into one with an academic who is obviously unwilling to look at evidence, especially in his field of expertise, that is contrary to his own. That in itself should be all you need to know about his possible future contributions to this topic. It is very challenging for me to look at concepts that are contrary to my world view and so sometimes fall short of what might ultimately be in my own best interest. I try to be patient with others, knowing this about myself however, this man is purporting to be a scientist and an expert in this field. How sad for science and ultimately then, for us all.

    I find myself coming back to this blog because of the quality of thought and the absence of unnecessary "meanness". My heartfelt appreciation goes out to all who challenge their own world views.
     
  15. ghost

    ghost New

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    There is definitive evidence that "transcendental entities" exist. To the question of whether aliens use hyper-drive technology to fly here from other star systems, the evidence is not as clear as I would like. Apparently abductions are real things that happen to people, like the movie Fire in the Sky. I'm not clear why the victim was dragged through hallways, but didn't see a control room.
     
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  16. Definitely check out Hancock's Supernatural and the work of Jacque Vallee - specifically Passport to Patagonia Magonia.

    I think both works might go too far in their conclusions, but the commonality between DMT entities, medieval accounts of the Fey, and alien abductions is rather interesting from even a cultural, ethnographic standpoint.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 20, 2014
  17. Formal Dining Room Set

    Formal Dining Room Set New

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    Passport to Magonia? :D
     
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  18. Heh, damn I always misspell the last part of that title.

    Thanks for the correction.
     
  19. Alex

    Alex New

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    thx. I have a conversation with Jeffery Schwartz coming up... yea, the chicken and the egg is just a way to soften the blow, but hard for the true believers to get it.


    yes! big point for me... as soon as we get into the meaning game we've let the fairy dust slip through our fingers.
     
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  20. Saiko

    Saiko Member

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    Actually . .it's actuality. Matter is a manifestation of consciousness. (again by consciousness I do not refer to standard human/animal awareness)
    BTW I don't know that actuality is in the business of checking in with the various human -isms. So quoting them as an attempt at refutation is meaningless.
     

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