Mod+ 254. HOWARD STORM TRANSFORMED BY NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCE

' Because we all judge what we see through the filter of our acquired knowledge, he thought he was being paid a visit by the eminent Mother of Jesus. He identified his surroundings in harmony with the religious notions the world had impressed upon him.'

So wrote Chico Xavier , on observing a patient - partially freed from his body, interpreting ordinary spirit helpers as something more.

from the book In the Greater World.
 
I have no idea what the greater aim of this forum is. It might be world peace or a commercial venture, but I observe some traits people need to overcome if it's to move forward. First, there are no clear conclusions to be drawn from any of the evidence on psi. Some of it is suggestive, but nothing I'd put the house on. Second there's an Orwellian double speak to some of the contributions, with thought crime lurking just beneath; so God = bad, higher self = good. Christ = error, Christ consciousness = correct. It's insulting in a number of ways, it excludes a lot of intelligent scientific thinkers from a valid role (and I suggest people Google scientists who are Christians and believers in God who are scientists to see their contributions) especially when it replaces intellectual and philosophical rigour with sentimentality and vagueness. It also pushes people like myself who have no interest in expounding our personal convictions into time-wasting, defensive postures, just to stay above the tide of misrepresentation and new age waffle. I use new age pejoratively, because behind the wall of inclusion and be-nice there's some really bad philosophy and slack conclusions.

Forums are made up of the contributors and there are some seriously bright, well read people on Skeptiko and a lot of good will, but at the end of the day Von Daniken and Aquinas, Icke and Kastrup aren't equal, and no amount of feel good rhetoric will make them so.
 
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I have no idea what the greater project of this forum is. It might be world peace or a commercial venture, but I observe some traits people need to overcome if it's to move forward. First, there are no clear conclusions to be drawn from any of the evidence on psi. Some of it is suggestive, but nothing I'd put the house on. Second there's an Orwellian double speak to some of the contributions, with thought crime lurking just beneath; so God = bad, higher self = good. Christ = error, Christ consciousness = correct. It's insulting in a number of ways, it excludes a lot of intelligent scientific thinkers from a valid role (and I suggest people Google scientists who are Christians and believers in God who are scientists to see their contributions) especially when it replaces intellectual and philosophical rigour with sentimentality and vagueness. It also pushes people like myself who have no interest in expounding our personal convictions into time-wasting, defensive postures, just to stay above the tide of misrepresentation and new age waffle. I use new age pejoratively, because behind the wall of inclusion and be-nice there's some really bad philosophy and slack conclusions.

Forums are made up of the contributors and there are some seriously bright, well read people on Skeptiko and a lot of good will, but at the end of the day Von Daniken and Aquinas, Icke and Kastrup aren't equal, and no amount of feel good rhetoric will make them so.

No offence , but wasn't it the intellectuals who rejected Jesus . It was the humble, ordinary folk who accepted him.

I think that you have the wrong idea somewhere.
IMO It is not that Jesus or any other great soul is myth. It's just that People who report meeting great souls on a level close to the Earth plane are most probably giving skewed reports. In other words those individuals would have to be on that level themselves to communicate with such beings.
After all when we visit a large office building , do we meet the CEO in the reception area.

I once listened to a remarkable trance address by Horace Hambling.

God spare us from the intellectuals he said , it's intelligent people we need.

all the best
 
Christians bare little resemblance to Christs teachings it appears.
Yeah I see traits a well.

To avoid being rude and insulting myself, I would just recommend some introspection Gabe and leave it at that.
 
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I have no idea what the greater aim of this forum is. It might be world peace or a commercial venture, but I observe some traits people need to overcome if it's to move forward.
Perhaps the most interesting forums don't have an explicit aim!
First, there are no clear conclusions to be drawn from any of the evidence on psi. Some of it is suggestive, but nothing I'd put the house on.
Well we all "put our houses" on this site to some extent. We spend an appreciable amount of our finite life time right here! My general feeling is that the evidence from a whole variety of strands of evidence would be very solid if there weren't such an effort to create disinformation.
Second there's an Orwellian double speak to some of the contributions, with thought crime lurking just beneath; so God = bad, higher self = good. Christ = error, Christ consciousness = correct. It's insulting in a number of ways, it excludes a lot of intelligent scientific thinkers from a valid role (and I suggest people Google scientists who are Christians and believers in God who are scientists to see their contributions) especially when it replaces intellectual and philosophical rigour with sentimentality and vagueness. It also pushes people like myself who have no interest in expounding our personal convictions into time-wasting, defensive postures, just to stay above the tide of misrepresentation and new age waffle. I use new age pejoratively, because behind the wall of inclusion and be-nice there's some really bad philosophy and slack conclusions.
Clearly belief in ψ can drift into a vague acceptance of every soft cosy idea going. However, don't forget that on this site we tend to concentrate on those aspects of ψ that are most provable. However, if even one aspect of ψ is real, it more or less follows that a whole raft of other ideas that are less readily proved, are nevertheless likely to be valid - obviously along with some that aren't. Once you know that meteorites really do fall from the sky, the idea that one fell in a field near where you live becomes hugely more plausible that it was before.
Forums are made up of the contributors and there are some seriously bright, well read people on Skeptiko and a lot of good will, but at the end of the day Von Daniken and Aquinas, Icke and Kastrup aren't equal, and no amount of feel good rhetoric will make them so.

Without some sort of Olympian overview, it isn't so easy to say which of those thinkers are closest to the mark. Placing all your intellectual eggs in one basket isn't a good idea.

David
 
That's a huge claim. There are near death experiences that have consistent themes, and ones which are anachronistic. Are we to say the OBE stage, the tunnel and bright light are also personal? That's sailing very close to physicalist debunking rhetoric.
I think the only definite thing you can say about NDE's is that they explore the theme of death, and typically involve a sense of greater consciousness, but aren't mutually consistent. That is the truth we have to grapple with. If all NDE's over the whole world that went far enough involved Jesus, we would have to accept that the Christian story is more or less true, but that isn't what happens.

David
 
It's just that People who report meeting great souls on a level close to the Earth plane are most probably giving skewed reports.
This is the kind of thing I mean. "Great souls", "earth plane". Like all words they have connotations, but what do they actually mean? Is God and Jesus more bankrupt intellectually than "great soul"? There's a tendency to assume some terms reflect the nature of reality more than others, but on what authority are those based? Why sink into political correctness over terminology? It just holds up the debate and allows someone to let off steam at the expense of the topic.
 
Christians bare little resemblance to Christs teachings it appears.
Yeah I see traits a well.

To avoid being rude and insulting myself, I would just recommend some introspection Gabe and leave it at that.
A little introspection on your part wouldn't go amiss either lotus eater. Your Christian may be some guy with a gun and a chip on each shoulder, but what about the people digging wells and risking life and limb to protect civilians in war zones and challenging totalitarianism for a greater good? Don't tell me, that'll be Christ consciousness in action. This is precisely the kind of mindless obstacle course of prejudice I'm tired of negotiating to discuss psi evidence. I really shouldn't have to offer Kurt Godel, or John Polkinghorne, or Andrew Pinsent or Rupert Sheldrake or the convictions of a hundred other cutting edge scientists to challenge someone's dislike of "Christians" every time NDEs are discussed. You are functioning at precisely the same intellectual level as pseudoskeptics when you go down that route.
 
On the contrary Gabe, I have high regard for the christian scholars who I have regulaly cited in the past. With many many links from discovery institute fellows that I have defended against anti religious rhetoric.
As you now I am a design proponent. I do believe in God it just that the word has become meaningless and twisted. I am in full agreement of the message and morals of christianty.

Lotus eater? Nice.

I can tell you, I am convinced I have felt the presence of the divine using entheogens. Have had contact with entities. Both angelic and demonic and alien. And through it come to the same conclusion as the christ. Love is all that matters. I have even had visions of the crucifiction that brought me to tears, and other religious motiff visions.

I am not trying to speak from ego, but I have split and shattered my personality so many times I am very aware of my arogance, pettiness, fears and biass, I have seen it all in graphic detail from out side of myself. And I am also aware of how this kind of talk must sound.
We often speak of how these things cloud our vision and they do. But there is a way to remove all of them, to disintergrate the self entirely. That is how I actually became a theist of sorts.

Truth be known that all religions are connected to the sacred plants and ectastic rituals stemming from the eastern fertility cults, and sex cults. You won't have any of it of course. It is quite clearly dipicted in several hundred years of christian iconography.

Sorry but you are not truly understanding what I am saying perhaps. Your tirades are a little confusing to me.
 
Truth be known that all religions are connected to the sacred plants and ectastic rituals stemming from the eastern fertility cults, and sex cults. You won't have any of it of course. It is quite clearly dipicted in several hundred years of christian iconography.
It doesn't matter what I will or won't "have", you'll clearly be able to back up such a bold claim with proof.
 
Of course. I doubt it would matter. It would be just another conspiracy. Even with the anthropological research. And a few hundred dipictions of christian art.
 
I have no idea what the greater aim of this forum is. It might be world peace or a commercial venture, but I observe some traits people need to overcome if it's to move forward. First, there are no clear conclusions to be drawn from any of the evidence on psi. Some of it is suggestive, but nothing I'd put the house on. Second there's an Orwellian double speak to some of the contributions, with thought crime lurking just beneath; so God = bad, higher self = good. Christ = error, Christ consciousness = correct. It's insulting in a number of ways, it excludes a lot of intelligent scientific thinkers from a valid role (and I suggest people Google scientists who are Christians and believers in God who are scientists to see their contributions) especially when it replaces intellectual and philosophical rigour with sentimentality and vagueness. It also pushes people like myself who have no interest in expounding our personal convictions into time-wasting, defensive postures, just to stay above the tide of misrepresentation and new age waffle. I use new age pejoratively, because behind the wall of inclusion and be-nice there's some really bad philosophy and slack conclusions.

Forums are made up of the contributors and there are some seriously bright, well read people on Skeptiko and a lot of good will, but at the end of the day Von Daniken and Aquinas, Icke and Kastrup aren't equal, and no amount of feel good rhetoric will make them so.

I'm really trying to understand what you are saying here.

When you use the capital "G" God what does that mean exactly? The God of the bible I assume. Do the other religions and Gods that are as old as the Christian God equal God? How do they rate in comparison?
 
I'm really trying to understand what you are saying here.

When you use the capital "G" God what does that mean exactly? The God of the bible I assume. Do the other religions and Gods that are as old as the Christian God equal God? How do they rate in comparison?
Who knows, ask Sheldrake.
 
This is the kind of thing I mean. "Great souls", "earth plane". Like all words they have connotations, but what do they actually mean? Is God and Jesus more bankrupt intellectually than "great soul"? There's a tendency to assume some terms reflect the nature of reality more than others, but on what authority are those based? Why sink into political correctness over terminology? It just holds up the debate and allows someone to let off steam at the expense of the topic.

What about "ascended masters" and "celestial realms"? There have been a pretty good handful of folks on Rick Archer's Buddha at the Gas Pump series who do claim to have access during waking consciousness to such areas and entities. Is that new age clap-trap or the ability of someone with who is highly self-realized to peer past the nature of this physical reality?
 
What about "ascended masters" and "celestial realms"? There have been a pretty good handful of folks on Rick Archer's Buddha at the Gas Pump series who do claim to have access during waking consciousness to such areas and entities. Is that new age clap-trap or the ability of someone with who is highly self-realized to peer past the nature of this physical reality?
What's the question?
 
Who knows, ask Sheldrake.

I don't get it. I'm trying to understand where you are coming from. For you is there a hierarchy of Gods where somehow the God of the bible sits at the top as supreme. I'm not looking to mock you, just trying to understand.
 
I don't get it. I'm trying to understand where you are coming from. For you is there a hierarchy of Gods where somehow the God of the bible sits at the top as supreme. I'm not looking to mock you, just trying to understand.
No, you're projecting what you think I think as a Christian, with a sideline in scorn. I don't believe Christianity is lacking in philosophical rigour or spiritual scope, and lots of smart people agree. My appeal to authority meets your appeal to ridicule. Something has to give. Nobody has yet answered why Rupert Sheldrake gets a free pass on morphic resonance and Anglicanism. Or is he a genius-chump?
 
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