Mod+ 270. ASU PROF. LAWRENCE KRAUSS CALLS FOR DALAI LAMA TO STEP DOWN OVER REINCARNATION CLAIM

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Mar 31, 2015.

  1. Alex

    Alex New

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  2. Typoz

    Typoz Member

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    I'll just comment on the topic of reincarnation. Dr. Krauss spent some time making excuses to justify not looking at the evidence on reincarnation. That's all well and good, life is short, there isn't time to study everything. How then is he able to make bold pronouncements about the subject? He seemed prone to making sort of kindergarten statements as though they were profound and undeniable.

    Moving on to how we can investigate the subject. I'll say from first-hand experience that the evidence isn't always shareable, any more than many other experiences are. For example going to a music concert, or going on a trip to somewhere new, we experience stuff, it means an enormous amount to the individual, but trying to explain what it was like to someone else is pretty much an empty effort, all you can give is an outline, without the depth. Experience of reincarnation can be a little like that, the parts which are visible to others as demonstrable evidence in my opinion only just begin to scratch the surface.

    Having said that, Dr. Ian Stevenson and Dr. Jim Tucker have made strong contributions to the field. My own stance has been to look for factors which are obscure and virtually impossible to explain by ordinary means. Of course there are those who attempt to invoke psychic powers as a preferred choice rather than grasp the nettle. But that is to deny the nature of the experience, which is not merely about plucking facts and figures from the air, but is about living, about being.
     
  3. Krauss should step down.
     
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  4. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Alex's questions at the end of the podcast:

    1. From a scientific standpoint, is reincarnation nonsense? How would we explore such a question scientifically?

    2. How can life have any meaning if we live in a meaningless universe?

    3. How can reincarnation be true when there are more people alive today than have ever lived before? (Alex doesn't know).
     
  5. Alex

    Alex New

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    thx Michael... I had the questions transcribed this time around:
    Question 1: Is reincarnation nonsense? And I ask that question from a scientific standpoint. How would we approach the question of reincarnation? It’s a widely held belief. Many people have a belief in it not just by birth, but an actual experience of it… i.e. memories, recollections of previous lives. How would we explore such a question scientifically?

    Question 2: How can your life have any meaning if you live in a meaningless universe? I’ve asked this question to many atheists and skeptics and I never seem to get an answer. And I don’t think I got an answer from Dr. Krauss either. This is simple logic: if the entire universe is meaningless then how is it possible that your life has any real meaning? Of course you can pretend that your life has meaning, but it’s inside of a universe that has no meaning. How is that possible?

    And finally, I’d offer up one answer to Dr. Krauss’ question of how can reincarnation exist if there’s more people on the planet now than ever before? The answer is, I don’t know because we haven’t investigated how reincarnation might work. And what is the nature of consciousness that might exist outside the body? When I was listening to Dr. Krauss and his ramblings on extraordinary claims and extraordinary proof, I couldn’t help but remember a recent interview I did with radio host, Tim Binnall and his excellent reworking of that phrase: “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary investigations.” I think Tim’s got it right on the money.
     
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  6. Ian Gordon

    Ian Gordon Ninshub Member

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    Souls lived in other realms, whether physical or non-physical. Incarnated earth-souls can be splinters from a larger oversoul (i.e. several people share the same soul). There are many possible metaphysical explanations for how this could be (likely is, IMO, based on multiple relayed experiences I find convincing).
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2015
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  7. Reincarnation is not nonsense because past life hypnotic regression therapy is immensely beneficial to patients suffering from certain psychological and emotional difficulties. This alone is sufficient reason to study past life hypnotic regression: because it has immense therapeutic value.

    Evidence for reincarnation includes:
    Children who remember past lives and have an unusual type of birth mark on their body where they had an injury in the past life.
    Past life hypnotic regression.
    People who have near-death experiences learn about reincarnation during their experiences.

    Reincarnation can be studied in the ways it has already been studied, by investigating claims of past life memories, and through hypnotic regression.

    Your life can have meaning in a meaningless universe if you have the illusion that it does, but then you can't trust any of your beliefs, such as materialism and atheism, because they might be illusions too.

    How can reincarnation exist if there are more people on the planet than ever before? Because some living people might be on their first incarnation. This is a very easy question that requires very simple mathematical ability. Krauss should step down, anyone who lacks such basic math skills is not qualified to be working as a physicist. But it is not surprising coming from someone who thinks the universe can come from nothing.
    0 + 0 = 0 (nothing comes from nothing)
    1 > 0 (natural laws are not nothing)

    But that type of faulty of reasoning ability is exactly what you would expect of a person who believes he is a biological robot in a meaningless universe fooled by an illusion into thinking that life has meaning. And he might believe all sorts of other weird things too.

    For your reading pleasure:

    Birthmarks and Birth Defects Corresponding to Wounds on Deceased Persons
    http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_07_4_stevenson.pdf

    Three New Cases of Reincarnation Types in Sri Lanka With Written Records
    http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_02_2_stevenson.pdf

    Phobias in Children Who Claim to Remember Previous Lives
    http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_04_2_stevenson.pdf

    Do Cases of the Reincarnation Type Show Similar Features Over Many Years?
    http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_13_2_keil.pdf

    Stability of Assessments of Paranormal Connections in Reincarnation Type Cases
    http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_14_3_stevenson.pdf

    Unusual Play in Young Children Who Claim to Remember Previous Lives
    http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_14_4_stevenson.pdf

    The Similarity of Features of Reincarnation Type Cases Over Many Years: A Third Study
    http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_17_2_stevenson.pdf

    Children of Myanmar Who Behave like Japanese Soldiers: A Possible Third Element in Personality
    http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_19_2_stevenson.pdf


    Also see the following URL for a list of publications by Ian Stevenson
    http://www.medicine.virginia.edu/clinical/departments/psychiatry/sections/cspp/dops/publications-page
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2015
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  8. Typoz

    Typoz Member

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    3. How can reincarnation be true when there are more people alive today than have ever lived before? (Alex doesn't know).

    I can't claim to know the answer, that would be over-reaching. But there are lots of possibilities. Just a few options off the top of my head, take your pick:

    • a soul may be newly-formed from some universal substance, just as the physical body is newly-constructed from physical substance
    • souls may be plentiful, the supply of physical bodies into which to incarnate may be a scarce resource
    • a soul may progress from other animals, for example it's not a great stretch to imagine a horse reincarnating as a human
    • a soul may migrate from other planets
    • a single soul may divide into multiple facets each of which incarnates into a separate body
    Not intended to be an exhaustive list. But enough for now.
     
  9. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Oh, God. Krauss is completely close-minded. Only what he's interested in has any merit, and he's swallowed orthodoxy all the way along the line, from climate change to reincarnation. I don't know why you bothered with him, Alex, especially when, for whatever reason, he wasn't able (or willing?) to hang around for longer than it took to assert his prejudices.

    He has his world view all sewn up and locked tight from possible assault; it's a waste of time talking to him--except, perhaps, to illustrate what an unconscionable boor he is, and how lacking he is in introspective ability.
     
  10. Ian Gordon

    Ian Gordon Ninshub Member

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    I'm thinking of reports of NDErs saying they came across beings - other "souls" - who said, or the NDEr "knew", telepathically - they had never incarnated on Earth (such as in Natalie Sudman - check out her multi-part interview on Bob Olson's afterlife tv), as well as mediumistic communications or channeling relaying the same "info".
     
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  11. Alex

    Alex New

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    Krauss is MAINSTREAM SCIENCE! Most of us on this forum realize how absurd this is, but most others do not.
     
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  12. Bucky

    Bucky Member

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    I think I'll pass... There's always a first. :)
    At least Dawkins has a nice tone of voice, good eloquence and a British accent. Makes the utter nonsense a little more bearable :D
     
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  13. Typoz

    Typoz Member

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    Then you'll miss the watery sound effects, sounds like he's in a bathtub or something at times.
     
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  14. Alex

    Alex New

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    you can look away, but you must :) take a 90 day self imposed ban from optimism about a "paradigm shift".
     
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  15. Bucky

    Bucky Member

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    Now I am curious :D
     
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  16. Bucky

    Bucky Member

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    To be honest, I think I banned myself from optimism in that regard a long time ago :)
    My hope is that people like Sheldrake, Braude, Radin etc... will leave the future generations a lot of sons/daughters and nephews :D
     
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  17. Why would you want to use science to study something that is so important to our understanding of who we are?

    Most published research findings are false:
    http://www.economist.com/news/scien...w-institute-has-you-its-sights-metaphysicians

    Scientists have to lie and cheat to compete for research funding.
    Retraction watch.
    http://retractionwatch.com/

    Science is so hoplessly politicized that you can't trust any scientific finding (see below).

    The study of reincarnation should be left to amateurs who do not have to be politically correct and lie and cheat.


    Video on the politicization of science.
    http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/video-on-the-politicization-of-science.2072/


    Despite the title this is mostly about the politicization of science in society. It is not all about the current era or the current administration, or even entirely about the government. This video is not anti-science. It is about how science can be abused for ideological or political purposes.

    Subjects include:

    Appointmentt of Scientific Ideologues

    "Why should the law not be able to prevent a person from having more than two Children?" John Holdren Director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, and Co-Chair of the President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology​
    Stretching The Scientific Data
    Global warming alarmist claims (such as an increase of wild fires) that are not supported by science.
    Coercive Utopianism
    School lunch program that doesn't consider the needs of student atheletes or expectant mothers.​
    Secret Science
    EPA refusal to release data to .. people they don't like.​
    Enlisting Science in the Culture War
    President taped a introduction to a TV series that likened those who disagree with climate change to Nazis.
    The Rise of Totalarian Science

    Ecology
    Coercive measures to control population. "The life of a newborn baby is of less value than the life of a pig, a dog or a chimpanzee." Peter Singer
    Medicine and Biotethics
    NBC (tv network): "It's pro-science to abort children with genetic defects" when such abortions are a question of ethics not science.
    Faith & Science
    Professors use science to promote their anti-religious views. One researcher who thought design in nature is such an obvious inference that "Young children can be taught basic natural selection using a picture-storybook intervention.
    Free Speech
    Use of of terms like "heretics" and "anti-science" for anyone who disagrees with the mainstream scientific view. NY Times refusing to print letters to the editor disputing climate change when the tradition of printing letters to the editor exists to provide views that differ from the editorial policy of the paper. Calls for the prosecution of global warming skeptics. Canceling of an interdisciplinary class on the "boundaries of science" that included a week on cosmology and physics data that supported intelligent design. Campus speech code banning science and humanities professors from discussing intelligent design.This is in contrast to the previous point where atheists are free to use science to argue for their opinions such as the need to ban religion. A NASA scientists was fired for sharing information about intelligent design with colleagues. A "Free thinker" mob threatened to disrupt a non credit adult education course at Amarillo College on intelligent design causing the course to be canceled.​
    http://nypost.com/2009/10/06/white-houses-botched-op/

    [​IMG]

    OOPS! A crowd of 150 doctors gathers in the Rose Garden to support the health-care overhaul -- as White House staffers scramble to hand out camera-ready white coats to those who forgot their own.​
    In my opinion, if science can be abused for political purposes that doesn't mean that science is inherently evil and should be abolished. The same argument applies to religion. Religion can be abused but that doesn't mean religion is inherently bad or that it should be abolished.
     
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  18. Typoz

    Typoz Member

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    Or it may be that their ideas take time to ferment and grow in the wider consciousness. It's hard to predict whose ideas will be influential over the longer term.
     
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  19. Radin is part of the problem not part of the solution, he published an article in a peer-reviewed medical journal saying that NDEs can be explained by ESP not disembodied consciousness.
     
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  20. tim

    tim New

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    I'm just going to make one comment and then I'm off again. I think I heard him say basically there's no evidence for "souls etc."

    Back to the old hymn sheet and what I find so frustrating...he's not aware of the NDE/OBE research (or if he is, he's swallowed the sceptical "explanations)." We have all these veridical OBE cases written up and the odds against every one of them being explainable by brain pathology are astronomical ....and yet he won't look at them..

    How can reincarnation be true, well how can someone's personality float around the ICU when he's dead and see post it notes ? There's no mechanism for reincarnation and he's right there but there's no mechanism for someone's consciousness floating around the room. So he's missing something that has enormous potential for humans....because he already "knows" it's crap. Pitiful, Krauss
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2015

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