A quantum case of mind over matter?

Discussion in 'Consciousness & Science' started by Mr.Sandman, May 20, 2017.

  1. Mr.Sandman

    Mr.Sandman Member

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    I was browsing my facebook and I saw this:


    Link:https://insidetheperimeter.ca/a-quantum-case-of-mind-over-matter/



    And I thought it was just another clickbait from a New Age site claiming that "QM = ESP", however I was surprised that the link was from the Perimeter Institute. And I was more surprise that the author was Lucien Hardy (you may not know him, but the guy is "certified genius":https://scholar.google.com.br/scholar?hl=pt-BR&q=lucien+hardy&btnG=&lr=).

    I personally deslike to mix quantum mechanics to mind and paranormal and many attempts to do that are just stupid. However, I find interesting when serious physicists (like Henry Stapp, Harald Atmanspacher and Roger Penrose).

    Link for the full paper:
    https://arxiv.org/pdf/1705.04620.pdf

    (He talks a little bit about cartesian dualism too, however I didn't read everything)


    Edit:

    More info:
    https://www.newscientist.com/articl...st-could-reveal-the-limits-of-the-human-mind/


     
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
  2. DarthT15

    DarthT15 Member

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    Well, should be very interesting if the experiment is successful, Don't cross your fingers though.
     
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  3. Mr.Sandman

    Mr.Sandman Member

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    I think that nobody will ever perform such experiment and, as Nicolas Gisin, I think the experimental setup by Hardy is not optimal to check these kind of things. However I think that people like Dean Radin should probably try to do something similar to what the paper proposes (in fact, I don't even know if some parapsychologist has done something similar).

    Nevertheless, I find funny how these people are essentially promoting experiments to disprove materialism and everybody is "Ok, it's important to do that and see what happens". However, this is exactly what parapsychologists are doing for decades and almost nobody cares.
     
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  4. VERY interesting - thanks for linking!

    Reminds of the experiments where humans seemed capable of detecting photons.
     
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  5. Mr.Sandman

    Mr.Sandman Member

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    He cited a lot of interesting references for instance:

    https://arxiv.org/abs/1608.04804 - Quanta and Qualia - Adrian Kent (Cambridge University)

    And other two papers from him:

    [26] Lucien Hardy. Local determinism and mind-matter duality. preprint, 1989. Available on request.

    [27] Lucien Hardy. Proposal for experiment to investigate local deterministic models which incorporate non-material mind. preprint, 1989. Available on request.

    I'll try to see I'm able to get them. (Also, It's funny how he waited almost 30 years to be more open about his non-materialistic ideas. I wonder if Rupert Sheldrake had done that, if he would be a renowed biologist now).
     
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  6. Typoz

    Typoz Member

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    That would have been a loss. One way or another, I think Sheldrake chose his path wisely.
     
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  7. E.Flowers

    E.Flowers New

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    All of those papers are quite old, after that he created Hardy's paradox which was tested a few years ago. You should look that up, it's interesting.
     
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  8. LetsEat

    LetsEat Member

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    I don't understand how measuring an EEG, which is material, will demonstrate that the mind isn't governed by material laws.
     
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  9. It's not necessarily a hard proof but it would be unusual/interesting if QM acts differently in the mind than it does outside it. That it does is one of the testable portions of the Peer to Peer Sim Hypothesis.

    I personally don't expect much from the results but I think the experiment is interesting.

    You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
    -Winston Churchill
     
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  10. Mr.Sandman

    Mr.Sandman Member

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    Yes. The papers are from his PhD years and he never published it, after that he focused on his formal carreer in quantum foundations. However, the first paper I quoted is from one week ago and apparently he didn't "change his mind" that a non-material mind is physically possible

    (And Adrian Kent paper is from last year).

    Well, the point is to be a proof of mind over matter. If everything is governed by material laws then mind can be non-physical but does nothing in the physical world.

    Also, the point of EEG is just to make things faster. The real point is to see if human conscious decisions can affect the physical world in a way that it's not simply predicted by physics.

    As Hardy puts it:

    Of course, I'm not saying his picture is correct and I don't think it's going to work. Also, even if it's true, this doesn't mean that his experiment is going to work. However, if his experiment works (which at least is theoretically possible) then it will be fatal to materialism.
     
  11. Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

    Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Member

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    It won't disprove materialism. It will simply add a big wrinkle to be explained. That explanation might lead to a rejection of materialism in the long run.

    The trick here will be reproducibility, which is the problem with psi. If many scientists can reproduce an interesting result at will, then people will pay attention. The question of loopholes in Bell experiments is important.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loopholes_in_Bell_test_experiments

    ~~ Paul
     
  12. Mr.Sandman

    Mr.Sandman Member

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    Sure, you cannot disprove something, you can just make things more and more likely than other things. The point is if the experiment succeds, is much easier to construct a consistent local dualist theory than a consistent local materialist theory (see the discussion in sections 7 and 8 in the paper).

    However, as I said before, I doubt that Hardy picture is right. But if it is, I cannot see any better explanation than his.
     
  13. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    So is it work?
     
  14. LetsEat

    LetsEat Member

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    Looks like it hasn't been performed. No news on if it is going to be done either. I checked Hardys personal website and his arxiv profile.
     
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  15. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    Thank, because of languages problems i can't find information about this ^_^||
     

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