Mod+ "anomalies" in NDEs

#1
With those "anomalies" I basically refer to non-veridical (wrong) perceptions during the out-of-body-phase and the encounter of people who are still alive and normally conscious or those like Elvis Presley or Santa Claus in a small number of NDEs. I am generally convinced that NDEs are "real" experiences, as opposed to hallucinations, but I am undecided what to make of those experiences that do not fit. Keith A. (I do not agree with his conclusions) did a good job in presenting examples of the cases I am talking about. If it is assumed that the "afterlife realm" or at least the initial experience or transitory phase, is purely subjective and reflect the individual´s state of (sub)consciousness then we need to assume that the dead friends and relatives that normally appear are no more real than still living people (and Santa Claus) that are met? For it seems inconsequent to assume only those encounters are real that "fit". And why is the content of some OBEs clearly hallucinatory while others seem to be truely genuine? I would like to hear other peoples´opinion about that. Thank you!
 
#2
In my opinion some NDEs contain strong non-veridical elements because the NDErs are more influenced by their cultural baggage and are less spiritually developed we could say.

About the NDEs with encounters living people, I believe that these cases are a minority, while cases of encounters with deceased or deceased but the NDEr believed they were alive, are majority, so we can not ensure that encounters with dead people are encounters with real people, but that's most likely because it is the majority.

It is also possible that the NDEs with encounters living people are not hallucinatory because they involve encounter with such people, but only with their unconscious, so those people do not consciously remember the encounter with the NDErs:

http://forum.mind-energy.net/scientific-debates/1264-reasons-ndes-real-discussion-debate-4.html

And on NDEs with Santa Claus or Elvis Presley, I do not know any NDE with Elvis, but I think there is a misinterpretation of the NDE with Santa. What I have read is that a girl met Jesus wearing a similar hat to Santa, which is not the same as met with Santa:

http://triablogue.blogspot.com.es/2011/05/dream-like-aspects-of-near-death.html

"Cherie Sutherland describes the NDE of a seven-year-old, involving Jesus "wearing a red hat and having a round belly like Santa Claus". The girl also saw "people waiting to be born" (in Janice Miner Holden, et al., edd., The Handbook Of Near-Death Experiences [Santa Barbara, California: Praeger Publishers, 2009], p. 91)."
 
#3
While most NDE testimonies are worthy of attention, not all NDErs have the facility to recall what they experienced in a way that is comprehensible. Almost all emphasise their inability to do justice to the scale and scope of the experience, but are nonetheless compelled to try. Many use similes or proportions ("it was a hundred times more real") but we have to accept that without having experienced one, our attempts to create an NDE taxonomy are almost worthless. For that reason I would never take any single, or even two or three accounts, as totemic, or accept their detail as being 'true'. There are simply no explanations for them, and they vary in extreme ways, perhaps even to an individual level, while exhibiting a few basic motifs we call NDE.
 
#4
The differences in the reports from the western... tunnel, light and brilliant landscape etc... to the unusual (for instance) Malaysian descriptions are often picked up by sceptics as "told you so, it's cultural brain function."

Personally, It's doesn't bother me too much as I would expect any other world to be diverse (but peaceful) . Still we can't ever really know until we have the experience ourselves but what we can know is that there is a separating psyche or soul. I'm quite certain that there is but even if one just goes by the evidence (and leaves out certainties) it's becoming hard for the sceptics to make a case against it.

I thought Nelson's comments were quite bizarre after he heard Parnia tell him explicitly that they had a verifiable veridical OBE during a 3-5 minute period of cardiac arrest>>> "Lets take a different tack on this".......or something like that ....

Now why would he want to do that, I wonder ?
 
#5
With those "anomalies" I basically refer to non-veridical (wrong) perceptions during the out-of-body-phase and the encounter of people who are still alive and normally conscious or those like Elvis Presley or Santa Claus in a small number of NDEs. I am generally convinced that NDEs are "real" experiences, as opposed to hallucinations, but I am undecided what to make of those experiences that do not fit. Keith A. (I do not agree with his conclusions) did a good job in presenting examples of the cases I am talking about. If it is assumed that the "afterlife realm" or at least the initial experience or transitory phase, is purely subjective and reflect the individual´s state of (sub)consciousness then we need to assume that the dead friends and relatives that normally appear are no more real than still living people (and Santa Claus) that are met? For it seems inconsequent to assume only those encounters are real that "fit". And why is the content of some OBEs clearly hallucinatory while others seem to be truely genuine? I would like to hear other peoples´opinion about that. Thank you!
I don't think the initial phase of the experience.. is... subjective. The vast majority of beings seen are deceased loved ones which is strongly suggestive of survival. In any sample (especially reports from the seriously ill) there are going to be anomalies. I remember reading the first Elvis sighting ...from memory he said "Hi Bev, I'm Elvis" if I have it right and I haven't followed the link.

Now either she saw Elvis who appeared to her (to please her maybe) or she hallucinated her favourite rock and roll star sometime during the experience. We can't know and we can't realistically take at face value what patients say. But we CAN check the earthly reported parts of the NDE
and if those tally, which they do IMO then that's really all we need :)

I hear the sceptics sharpening their pencils ....
 
#6
why is the content of some OBEs clearly hallucinatory while others seem to be truely genuine?
In my view you really need to consider issues concerning 'perception' or 'conscious awareness' before you can really get to grips with this sort of question. Certainly Celia Green's book 'Apparitions', and perhaps Steve Lehar's web site might provide an interesting introduction to to this subject, I found them thought provoking and challenging, particularly Celia's book. You might also consider a more recent paper by Charles McCreery entitled 'Perception and Hallucinations', which I thought presented some interesting arguments to get you thinking.

I can't really do justice to my own opinions within a short forum post. Suffice it to say I'm most convinced by arguments for 'indirect perception'. Depending if, and at what level of understanding you are willing to accept 'indirect perception', you may find there is no longer any need to even ask your question.
 
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#7
Thank you for the discussion, I really appreciate everyone's input! Haruhi, there are indeed very few cases where people were encountered that were alive and not asleep or in a non- ordinary state of consciousness. Mostly childrens' NDEs but Keith's article also mentions sme grown ups had. You are right with the Santa Claus case I misremembered that. Tim, yes, this case, “Elvis“ and a lady with the name Beverly, I think the original source is one of Melvin Morse's books. My problem is that I love to categorize things. Those both aspects of the NDE ( veridical OBEs and the motive of meeting dead people) is what makes the NDE strong as a paranormal experience. This is why cases that “are not as they should“ bother me :)
 
#8
Thank you for the discussion, I really appreciate everyone's input! Haruhi, there are indeed very few cases where people were encountered that were alive and not asleep or in a non- ordinary state of consciousness. Mostly childrens' NDEs but Keith's article also mentions sme grown ups had. You are right with the Santa Claus case I misremembered that. Tim, yes, this case, “Elvis“ and a lady with the name Beverly, I think the original source is one of Melvin Morse's books. My problem is that I love to categorize things. Those both aspects of the NDE ( veridical OBEs and the motive of meeting dead people) is what makes the NDE strong as a paranormal experience. This is why cases that “are not as they should“ bother me :)
It's a good question about the anomalies. Well worth much more investigation. Thanks, IrGie ....and I'm off and out of the forum because I would rather read than comment. best wishes
 
#9
Having followed Haruhi´s link I discovered that parts of the issue have already been discussed on the old forum. There I found a link to a study in which acutally 32% of the NDErs encountered living persons (vers. 16% with dead persons). This surprised me but unfortunately, those encounters hadn´t been put into a context. For example, it is to be expected that people still alive are seen during the life review, that they are observed in the out of body state or that maybe visions of loved ones appear when the decision to ga back is being made or even in visions of the future. But the study did not give details on the type of the encounters, only the numbers. I visit the nderf.org website from time to time which I think is a good resource for analysis as the experiences are presented as told by the experiencers, without alterations (it seems). While living people do occur in some NDEs it seems to be the minority...So what I can say is that it is pretty hard to draw objective conclusions from the subjective experiences of other people :)
 
#10
Leaving out the NDE aspect and taking a more general approach, I've seen it described in channelled material, etc., that we often see makes us feel comfortable. This applies to surroundings as well as personalities. People see family, religious figures and occasionally celebrities. This may be because those approaching us can take any form and choose one that will be accepted by the "newly arrived".

If belief is quite strong that something awful probably awaits or the deceased carries a lot of fear, guilt or shame, then perhaps a hellish setting might be experienced at first.

Finally, there are people - living now - who claim to be "helpers" who assist with the passing over of others. They may do so during sleep time or trance or even by detaching a part of their personality while otherwise engaged in physical life. If so, there may be others who do so without being aware of it in their normal, waking lives (just as I remember very few of my dreams). I don't claim any expertise in these things but I think we might sometimes expect the experience to conform to the mundane, everyday nature of this physical life and categorise it as anomalous or suspect if it doesn't.
 
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