Are "hellish" transcendent states just as objectively real as "mystical" states?

#1
I recently completed the book, Irreducible Mind, and am almost a third of the way into their follow up book, Beyond Physicalism. I am starting to lean more heavily towards the filter theory of mind, but one issue keeps coming up that I have been thinking about... If this "transcendent realm" exists objectively and independent of ourselves, in a sense, yet which we r intricately connected to, and when our brains , for various reasons, allow us to see beyond the veil to our true nature, what of those experiences that r less than pleasant. In other words, the books make mention of various mystical states and that most likely being our true birthright, but not all "out of the ordinary or trancendent" experiences r positive. What about people who are mentally ill and experience dark realms or spirits, Devils etc.. If I give positive mystical states authenticity , objectively speaking, than so must I when it comes to the "negative" experiences..

What is everyone's thoughts regarding this?? If mystical states are "real" then so to must be "hellish ones"... Right?
 
#2
I recently completed the book, Irreducible Mind, and am almost a third of the way into their follow up book, Beyond Physicalism. I am starting to lean more heavily towards the filter theory of mind, but one issue keeps coming up that I have been thinking about... If this "transcendent realm" exists objectively and independent of ourselves, in a sense, yet which we r intricately connected to, and when our brains , for various reasons, allow us to see beyond the veil to our true nature, what of those experiences that r less than pleasant. In other words, the books make mention of various mystical states and that most likely being our true birthright, but not all "out of the ordinary or trancendent" experiences r positive. What about people who are mentally ill and experience dark realms or spirits, Devils etc.. If I give positive mystical states authenticity , objectively speaking, than so must I when it comes to the "negative" experiences..

What is everyone's thoughts regarding this?? If mystical states are "real" then so to must be "hellish ones"... Right?
They might be real, but it's a question of interpretation: the influence of various kinds of conditioning (Christian, Hindu, Buddhist etc) could colour perceptions. And yes, some perceptions might be interpreted as hellish.
 
#3
I recently completed the book, Irreducible Mind, and am almost a third of the way into their follow up book, Beyond Physicalism. I am starting to lean more heavily towards the filter theory of mind, but one issue keeps coming up that I have been thinking about... If this "transcendent realm" exists objectively and independent of ourselves, in a sense, yet which we r intricately connected to, and when our brains , for various reasons, allow us to see beyond the veil to our true nature, what of those experiences that r less than pleasant. In other words, the books make mention of various mystical states and that most likely being our true birthright, but not all "out of the ordinary or trancendent" experiences r positive. What about people who are mentally ill and experience dark realms or spirits, Devils etc.. If I give positive mystical states authenticity , objectively speaking, than so must I when it comes to the "negative" experiences..

What is everyone's thoughts regarding this?? If mystical states are "real" then so to must be "hellish ones"... Right?
I don't think frightening NDE's have been given the attention they deserve. There has always been a tendency to focus on the pleasant experiences, and quickly move over the frightening ones.

Yet these frightening experiences need understanding too. Particularly because some people have them, and have difficulty dealing with them.

In a general environment where the NDE is either thought to be some sort of hallucination, or a glimpse of an afterlife, these people are left rather isolated and struggling to digest their very real and frightening experience They don't even fit on the NDE type scales properly.

If you look at these distressing NDE's it's clear their is some vague subjective interpretation going on... For instance some people have experiences which they interpret as frightening, that would not be interpreted as frightening by others.

The more I delved, the more I became convinced that the NDE in general exposed some vague relationship between the experiencers state of mind/beliefs, and the external groups state of mind/beliefs.

When i get to know more about the background of the person, and the situation in which their NDE took place, I can begin to see things that make sense, things that provide an explanation as to why they had such an experience.

That's some of the reasoning why I came up with the suggestion that the NDE may be an attempt to reconcile external field patterns which were laid down on the persons brain when it became exposed.

I suggest that there is something to be understood about these experiences, and there is a better way of understanding them, which does not leave those who have frightening experiences sidelined, and unable to make sense of their experiences using either of the two main ways people currently understand them (hallucination or an after-life).
 
#4
Bill, if one takes seriously the idea of collective mental atmospheres, then all the epic output of the human imagination, including all the dark stuff, must "end up somewhere." The key question, imo, is whether persons (ex corporeal, assuming these to exist) "inhabit" such states and in a sense are, as it were, the atomic structure of them.
 
#6
They might be real, but it's a question of interpretation: the influence of various kinds of conditioning (Christian, Hindu, Buddhist etc) could colour perceptions. And yes, some perceptions might be interpreted as hellish.

Wait, what? Since when were we allowed to apply such earthly predispositions to these experiences? We'll make a Skeptic of you yet Michael...
 
#7
Wait, what? Since when were we allowed to apply such earthly predispositions to these experiences? We'll make a Skeptic of you yet Michael...
Yes, even I, as a "proponent", picked up on that double standard (sorry, Michael).

As a dualist in both senses (moral aka good/evil, as well as mind/body), I believe that negative NDEs should be interpreted as literally as positive NDEs, and that just as positive NDEs point to the reality, power and consequences of a good God, negative NDEs point to the reality, power, and consequences of His opposite.
 
#12
What is everyone's thoughts regarding this?? If mystical states are "real" then so to must be "hellish ones"... Right?
I think so... My definition of "real" is whatever is experienced. My definition of "more real" or "objectively real" is multiple experiences overlapping or corroborating each other or otherwise having high levels of similarity. Since hellish realms seem to be a common theme in NDEs and other mystical states.. though less common than the other brighter, lighter, fluffier realms, I would say that makes the hellish realms real.
 
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