Are ndes satanic deceptions

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I mean the ones with a pro christian message could be the only ndes that really have God in them
I'm not sure if any of them do - I think they are mostly the same as the ones non-christians have. I think others have more knowledge of this than me so I'll back out.
 
Let me ask this does the Bible say anything about Satan being able to change people the way ndes change people
 
Let me ask this does the Bible say anything about Satan being able to change people the way ndes change people

Why is the bible an authority for you?
Frankly I don't think it's possible to completely rule out the possibility that NDEs, OOBEs, after death communications etc may be subtle attempts by some agency such as the devil to deceive you. It's a probability assessment. Assuming that there is a devil to mislead anyone in the first place of course. What evidence do you have for that?

You'll drive yourself nuts going round in circles. How would you form a view about anything or anyone? Almost everything we know entails forming a subjective view about what we are hearing, unless we can witness it ourselves. Even if we can see it for ourselves - who's to say we're not still the subject of a sophisticated deception? It doesn't matter if the agency is visible or invisible as far as I can see.
 
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Let me ask this does the Bible say anything about Satan being able to change people the way ndes change people

There's no text I am aware of that would indicate the influence of malevolent forces results in improved life outcomes. In contrast, the consistent testimony shared by multiple authors is that the virtues develop in a person in direct proportion to one's participation in the divine life. Jesus has already been cited in terms of "by their fruits you will know them," but also:

1 John 4:7 - "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God."

Galatians 5:19-23 - Paul contrasts the "works of the flesh" (jealousy, strife, rage, etc) with the "fruit of the Spirit" (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness...)

John 15:4 - In Jesus' vine metaphor, he declares that a branch cannot bear fruit unless it is rooted in the vine (Jesus as the divine logos)

Oppositely:

1 John 3:8 - "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil."

Elsewhere in the NT, the results of diabolic influence are: mental and physical illness, life disruption, separation from one's community, and vanity and arrogance.
 
There's no text I am aware of that would indicate the influence of malevolent forces results in improved life outcomes. In contrast, the consistent testimony shared by multiple authors is that the virtues develop in a person in direct proportion to one's participation in the divine life. Jesus has already been cited in terms of "by their fruits you will know them," but also:

1 John 4:7 - "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God."

Galatians 5:19-23 - Paul contrasts the "works of the flesh" (jealousy, strife, rage, etc) with the "fruit of the Spirit" (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness...)

John 15:4 - In Jesus' vine metaphor, he declares that a branch cannot bear fruit unless it is rooted in the vine (Jesus as the divine logos)

Oppositely:

1 John 3:8 - "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil."

Elsewhere in the NT, the results of diabolic influence are: mental and physical illness, life disruption, separation from one's community, and vanity and arrogance.

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it’ ” (Matthew 24:23-26, NKJV).
 
Um, sure, but nothing that text says refutes my suggested criteria for discerning malevolent influence.
 
Insofar as nothing can exist apart from God as Being itself, and that God is love, then nothing is devoid of the barest hints of love. But, as St. Augustine noted, it is possible for our loves to be misdirected and corrupted, and their disordered character will become manifest. As Augustine also noted, evil has no existence in itself and is parasitic on the good. Therefore, yes, deception would involve some use, but ultimately some manipulation and distortion of love. And how else can this become apparent than in noting the fruits of this disordering? We get back to the need for criteria and thus the suggestions I outlined above. After all, what is envy but a disordering of the love for community an equity? What is rage but a disordering of the love of justice? What is sexual license but the disordering of the love of intimacy, companionship, and fidelity?

In short, "the truth will out." My prediction, based on biblical-theological criteria, is that if an NDE is a work of malevolent deception, it will bear fruit in the long-term in the deterioration of the individual's well-being and practice of the virtues. If an NDE results in increased prayerfulness, compassion, generosity, humility, etc., and these are sustained formations of character, then I cannot see any reason to justify the conclusion that the NDE was the result of sinister forces.
 
You can objectively try to read and interpret the Bible until you're blue in the face but it will ultimately come down to your subjective truth and experience. You can say "The Bible is the Word of God and the absolute truth." But who's truth? You still have to look at it with a subjective lens. There is no way around that. So, that's when IMHO you have to trust your gut, your intuition, or even the "Holy Spirit" if you will. So what does your gut say about what NDEs are?
 
Galatians 5:22-23New International Version (NIV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Look out for such attributes in descriptions.
 
Ok why do you think it can't be a satanic one


The Satan character from the bible was inspired by the Zoroastrian religion's concept of an eternal battle between good, Ahura Mazda and evil, that is Ahriman. The Jews inserted the devil in their Torah and scriptures after their discussions with Zoroastrians in Babylon. However, a lower astral entity or dead person in spirit may pose as Satan or any dark negative entity that may be found in religons all over the world. I would recommend reading the scriptures of other religions to get a broader view of things.
 
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As I've said before the "fruits" could just be part of the deception as to why God would allow this I would say for the same reason he allows all other bad things in the world to happen
Well I guess you have to take your choice:

1) Decide that the most literal interpretation of the Bible rules your life, and ignore all other evidence in case it is a deliberate deception.

2) Realise that as a 21st Century man equipped with the internet, it makes more sense to look at the actual evidence.

There isn't much point in pursuing this much further, I think, because if you think we are being deceived by Satan, and that God will punish us for being deceived, you are trapped in a place where further thought is impossible - except perhaps endless fruitless hunting through Biblical texts!

Most of us here are not Christians (certainly not Fundamentalist Christians), and we discuss the evidence for phenomena such as NDE's from a very non-Christian point of view, so perhaps this is not the right place for you to be.

David
 
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