Are OBE's merely coma hallucinations?

#21
Start here
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives/NDERF_NDEs.htm and scroll down to the bottom to the links to the archives.
Then click on a link to see the summaries of the NDE reports for the indicated date range. Search for "veridical" and then click on the link to read the full account. Start with 2002 and work forward, because the recent accounts have a different format and do not indicate if they are veridical or not.
Thanks. I decided to check them all just to be sure. I found 6 cases. In the 14th you can find Dr. Thomas J. NDE, two in the fourth last link by Dr. Kumar and Arnie R., one at the third last link by Corina, and the cases of Kris K and Nancy P, at the second last link and thats it. I'll check them, thanks.

However, I must ask, ¿what sort of investigation did all this NDEs went before being publicated here?
 
#22
I think it is laughable.
I agree.

Veridical OBE's of events that happen in distant physical locations can't be subjected to this excuse.

However I haven't really seen much evidence that these type of veridical OBE's exist beyond a case or two.

With that said, the whole neuron death thing is an absurd attempt to even explain the NDE portion. Bad memory is just a cop out.
 
#23
Thanks. I decided to check them all just to be sure. I found 6 cases. In the 14th you can find Dr. Thomas J. NDE, two in the fourth last link by Dr. Kumar and Arnie R., one at the third last link by Corina, and the cases of Kris K and Nancy P, at the second last link and thats it. I'll check them, thanks.

However, I must ask, ¿what sort of investigation did all this NDEs went before being publicated here?
That's the problem with NDERF, there are so many it's pretty much impossible for Jeff Long to verify these accounts. So it pretty much is just the NDE'rs word.

With that being said, NDERF has produced well verified accounts such as Anita Moorjani, and Jerry Baldwin. So it really does seem unlikely that everyone is lying or making things up when they submit their story, but since it's possible we can't know for sure unless we verify the stories case by case.
 
C

chuck.drake

#24
I agree.

Veridical OBE's of events that happen in distant physical locations can't be subjected to this excuse.

However I haven't really seen much evidence that these type of veridical OBE's exist beyond a case or two.

With that said, the whole neuron death thing is an absurd attempt to even explain the NDE portion. Bad memory is just a cop out.
Right. But if we were able to consider the gestalt of all recorded instances of non-local consciousness, then we don't need to focus on the OBE as related to the NDE, or the limited number of lab tests to ascertain veridicality in the OBE. If we are able to consider the gestalt then we no longer need to flip flop back and forth about consciousness. We know it has an aspect that can present as non-local. From that starting point we can build our stories and theories about what that means or how it arises. But anyone still denying that consciousness can present as non-local and who is looking to explain certain phenomena as contained entirely within the brain is hopelessly lost. Horse and buggy time.
 
#25
Right. But if we were able to consider the gestalt of all recorded instances of non-local consciousness, then we don't need to focus on the OBE as related to the NDE, or the limited number of lab tests to ascertain veridicality in the OBE. If we are able to consider the gestalt then we no longer need to flip flop back and forth about consciousness. We know it has an aspect that can present as non-local. From that starting point we can build our stories and theories about what that means or how it arises. But anyone still denying that consciousness can present as non-local and who is looking to explain certain phenomena as contained entirely within the brain is hopelessly lost. Horse and buggy time.
I don't think I'm at that level. I've only been studying NDE's thoroughly for about 3 months. Before then I was too religious to even read about them and merely dismissed them.

Now I am honestly open to them. However I haven't seen anything yet that can distinguish OBE's/NDE's from a special class of hallucination.

The only ones that I see as providing any powerful argument for the validity of these experiences are veridical OBE's of events that occur beyond the experiencers immediate location, and Peak in Darien experiences.

Unfortunately, thus far in my research these two type of cases are severely lacking .
 
#27
How do we verify that the NDEr truly did not know that the person had died?

~~Paul
Well in some cases it would be illogical to assume that the person had any knowledge of it. For example:

Pediatrician Melvin Morse described the case of a 7-year-old boy dying of leukemia, who told his mother that he had traveled up a beam of light to heaven, where he visited a “crystal castle” and talked with God. The boy said that a man there approached him and introduced himself as an old high school boyfriend of the boy’s mother. The man said he had been crippled in an automobile accident, but in the crystal castle he had regained his ability to walk. The boy’s mother had never mentioned this old boyfriend to her son, but after hearing of this vision, she called some friends and confirmed that her former boyfriend had died the very day of her son’s vision (Morse and Perry 1990:53).
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#29
Examples? I would love to read them
Oh, NDEs and OBEs aren't a big interest of mine. I just recall people mentioning some here and there on this forum. I know there was a case with a shoe on a roof that has some interesting back and forth.

What do you think?
I think it's unlikely simulations would settle the matter.

¿How much cases of OBE can be regarded as fraud? I think it's a bit naive to think that every single person in the history of OBE research has been honest given human nature ( which, lets face it, it's that people tend to lie for all sort of reasons, and sometimes even without reasons! ), but then again, it's also naive to think every single person who have an OBE that can't be explained by normal means is a liar, so ¿where does the middle ground stands, in your opinion?
Oh, I think the question is getting better research. Ideally something positive comes out of AWARE in that regard.
 
#30
I'm not trying to explain these things, I'm just trying to honestly evaluate them. I'm trying to be skeptical of them not to dismiss them, but to see if the evidence really is as strong as we believe it is.
You could just sidestep the issue of whether, and how many neurons are still able to fire in the human brain, and whether and to what extent they are responsible for the NDE.

Instead, you might consider evidence demonstrating apparently complex spatial and temporal processing in simple single, and multi-cellular organisms which don't actually have any neurons at all.
 
#31
Oh, NDEs and OBEs aren't a big interest of mine. I just recall people mentioning some here and there on this forum. I know there was a case with a shoe on a roof that has some interesting back and forth.



I think it's unlikely simulations would settle the matter.



Oh, I think the question is getting better research. Ideally something positive comes out of AWARE in that regard.
Speaking about AWARE. I heard that they would reveal their data in 2012, but I've been unable to find anything. ¿Do you have news from their research program?
 

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Nap, interrupted.
Member
#32
Well in some cases it would be illogical to assume that the person had any knowledge of it. For example:

Pediatrician Melvin Morse described the case of a 7-year-old boy dying of leukemia, who told his mother that he had traveled up a beam of light to heaven, where he visited a “crystal castle” and talked with God. The boy said that a man there approached him and introduced himself as an old high school boyfriend of the boy’s mother. The man said he had been crippled in an automobile accident, but in the crystal castle he had regained his ability to walk. The boy’s mother had never mentioned this old boyfriend to her son, but after hearing of this vision, she called some friends and confirmed that her former boyfriend had died the very day of her son’s vision (Morse and Perry 1990:53).
So we have to take the mother's word for all this. I'm not sure what logic has to do with it.

~~Paul
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#33
Speaking about AWARE. I heard that they would reveal their data in 2012, but I've been unable to find anything. ¿Do you have news from their research program?
Nope. I figure if something interesting happens a publication like Paranthopology will cover it, or we'll see a thread on it.
 

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Nap, interrupted.
Member
#37
I agree… hence why I said it was lacking. However you knew which question of yours I was answering before you dismissed it.

If your mind is already made up please don't waste my time faking genuine curiosity.
I'm genuinely curious.

All I was asking is what logic has to do with accepting or dismissing the mother's word for it. For example, how do we know that the mother didn't modify (possibly unintentionally) the boy's story once she learned that her former boyfriend had died that day?

How do we know that the boy didn't take a phone message about the boyfriend passing away and then work it into his vision?

~~Paul
 
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#38
Speaking about AWARE. I heard that they would reveal their data in 2012, but I've been unable to find anything. ¿Do you have news from their research program?
The results are undergoing peer review at present.

From AWARE Study Update 2014
"The study results are now undergoing peer review. It is anticipated that after the completion of this process, the investigators will announce the results to the public through conventional media channels. This will likely take place through collaboration between the university media offices, the medical journal and national and international media outlets."
 
#39
I'm genuinely curious.

All I was asking is what logic has to do with accepting or dismissing the mother's word for it. For example, how do we know that the mother didn't modify (possibly unintentionally) the boy's story once she learned that her former boyfriend had died that day?

How do we know that the boy didn't take a phone message about the boyfriend passing away and then work it into his vision?

~~Paul
1. The first scenario is obviously possible. The mother could have modified the story, or the whole thing could also have not happened at all.

2. This scenario is just absurd. Some 7 year old kid is going to take a break from dying from Leukemia in order to take a message about his moms random ex-boyfriend dying? On top of that the mom has to then make a series of phone calls to find out for herself? Why would the hospital staff pass the phone to this kid instead of the mom or at least another adult relative? Lol dude.

However IF this story is true as presented, it would be unreasonable to assume the kid had any knowledge that this ex-boyfriend died. The death had occurred that same day, and it wasn't some boyfriend that the family kept in touch with as evidenced by the fact that the mother never mentioned this ex-boyfriend. Yet even if she had mentioned this boyfriend at some point he was just that, some guy she talked about in some random stories. Obviously not a contemporary acquaintance.

What's logic have to do with hospitals giving 7-year old leukemia patients random phone messages about people they don't know dying?
 

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Nap, interrupted.
Member
#40
2. This scenario is just absurd. Some 7 year old kid is going to take a break from dying from Leukemia in order to take a message about his moms random ex-boyfriend dying? On top of that the mom has to then make a series of phone calls to find out for herself? Why would the hospital staff pass the phone to this kid instead of the mom or at least another adult relative? Lol dude.
The boy was in a hospital when this happened? I did not know that. If so, then I agree it's less likely.

However IF this story is true as presented, it would be unreasonable to assume the kid had any knowledge that this ex-boyfriends death. The death had occurred that same day, and it wasn't some boyfriend that the family kept in touch with as evidenced by the fact that the mother never mentioned this ex-boyfriend. Yet even if she had mentioned this boyfriend at some point he was just that, some guy she talked about in some random stories. Obviously not a contemporary acquaintance.
I agree that if this happened exactly as presented, it's a pretty interesting story.

Do you think it's more logical that hospitals give 7-year old leukemia patients random phone messages about people they don't know dying?
Why couldn't the boy answer the phone ringing in his room? A phone call from the very friends who later confirmed the boyfriend's death?

~~Paul
 
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