Came across this study, i did not have time yet to look at it much beyond the abstract, but i trust it will generate some interest from the NDE crowd
Came across this study, i did not have time yet to look at it much beyond the abstract, but i trust it will generate some interest from the NDE crowd
Coma: Researchers observe never-before-detected brain activity
Active brain state beyond the deep coma associated with a flat EEG
Researchers from the University of Montreal and their colleagues have found brain activity beyond a flat line EEG, which they have called Nu-complexes (from the Greek letter Νν). According to existing scientific data, researchers and doctors had established that beyond the so-called "flat line" (flat electroencephalogram or EEG), there is nothing at all, no brain activity, no possibility of life. This major discovery suggests that there is a whole new frontier in animal and human brain functioning.
The researchers observed a human patient in an extreme deep hypoxic coma under powerful anti-epileptic medication that he had been required to take due to his health issues. "Dr. Bogdan Florea from Romania contacted our research team because he had observed unexplainable phenomena on the EEG of a coma patient. We realized that there was cerebral activity, unknown until now, in the patient's brain," says Dr. Florin Amzica, director of the study and professor at the University of Montreal's School of Dentistry.
Dr. Amzica's team then decided to recreate the patient's state in cats, the standard animal model for neurological studies. Using the anesthetic isoflurane, they placed the cats in an extremely deep—but completely reversible—coma. The cats passed the flat (isoelectric) EEG line, which is associated with silence in the cortex (the governing part of the brain). The team observed cerebral activity in 100% of the cats in deep coma, in the form of oscillations generated in the hippocampus, the part of the brain responsible for memory and learning processes. These oscillations, unknown until now, were transmitted to the master part of the brain, the cortex. The researchers concluded that the observed EEG waves, or Nu-complexes, were the same as those observed in the human patient.
Dr. Amzica stresses the importance of understanding the implications of these findings. "Those who have decided to or have to 'unplug' a near-brain-dead relative needn't worry or doubt their doctor. The current criteria for diagnosing brain death are extremely stringent. Our finding may perhaps in the long term lead to a redefinition of the criteria, but we are far from that. Moreover, this is not the most important or useful aspect of our study," Dr. Amzica said.
From Nu-complexes to therapeutic comas
The most useful aspect of this finding is the therapeutic potential, the neuroprotection, of the extreme deep coma. After a major injury, some patients are in such serious condition that doctors deliberately place them in an artificial coma to protect their body and brain so they can recover. But Dr. Amzica believes that the extreme deep coma experimented on the cats may be more protective.
"Indeed, an organ or muscle that remains inactive for a long time eventually atrophies. It is plausible that the same applies to a brain kept for an extended period in a state corresponding to a flat EEG," says Professor Amzica. "An inactive brain coming out of a prolonged coma may be in worse shape than a brain that has had minimal activity. Research on the effects of extreme deep coma during which the hippocampus is active, through Nu-complexes. is absolutely vital for the benefit of patients."
"Another implication of this finding is that we now have evidence that the brain is able to survive a an extremely deep coma if the integrity of the nervous structures is preserved," said lead author of the study, Daniel Kroeger. "We also found that the hippocampus can send 'orders' to the brain's commander in chief, the cortex. Finally, the possibility of studying the learning and memory processes of the hippocampus during a state of coma will help further understanding of them. In short, all sorts of avenues for basic research are now open to us."
This is from an article that is a bit more accessible, the original article is to technical for me.
My hope is that some of that is going to be translated into laymanese by the knowledgeable crowd here.
I foresee at least one person claiming this as one big "told you so", and while the memory and learning centers remain powered it doesn't explain anomalous cognition which is suspected in some NDEs. It would also be necessary to see if when this is done to humans, they report any experiences while placed in this "deep coma."
At least now we could plausibly argue that the non-veridical experiences did in fact happen during standstills. All though it comes at the cost of yet-more doubt on the contents.What it suggests is that the brain is pretty complicated and we should really be hesitant when making declarations about it can or can't do.
Well said, but to me it also raises the question why the NDE researchers are not doing this kind of research.What it suggests is that the brain is pretty complicated and we should really be hesitant when making declarations about it can or can't do.
Its important to note what kind of activity, though. If its the kind of activity that primes twitch reflexes, then what use is it to ndes? If its not the kind of activity that would produce hyper lucid experiences, then its not useful to ndes. This is not a case where any brain activities falsify the survival hypothesis. If there are ANY discrepancies between mind states and brain states in the non-linear direction then the production hypothesis is falsified. One of the most compelling aspects of the production hypothesis is that when you damage your brain, you damage your mind. However, if the opposite is true sometimes ( when your brain is compromised, your mind works better ), then that relation is inverse and production loses credibility.Well said, but to me it also raises the question why the NDE researchers are not doing this kind of research.
This is something we can not learn from endlessly collecting NDE reports, this is the kind of research that needs to be done before anyone can make far reaching declarations about the (im)possibility of brain activity beyond flat EEG.
Well said, but to me it also raises the question why the NDE researchers are not doing this kind of research.
This is something we can not learn from endlessly collecting NDE reports, this is the kind of research that needs to be done before anyone can make far reaching declarations about the (im)possibility of brain activity beyond flat EEG.
I agree that this discovery is largely serendipitous.Because this study is derived ultimately from an anomalous case which fell in to their laps. Why you find it in neurology instead of from IANDS is because that's just who the poor individual having to be pumped full of anti-epileptics happened to be at the time. If the same guy walked in to Parnia's lab, they probably would write about it.
As we see now, that was an argument from ignorance, not backed up by the extensive research necessary to prove a negative with such confidence. If NDE research wasn't such an ideologically driven effort, the evidence could have been interpreted as tentative proof of unexpected brain activity at flat EEG. The only one exception might indeed be Parnia, although he might be hedging his bets a bit
The thing is though, the survivalists credo has always been "absolutely no brain activity possible during flat EEG".
That has rarely ever been the reply of serious survivalist scientists like Parnia, Pim Van Lommel, and Fenwick. Their argument has always been that the amount of brain activity is INSUFFICIENT to explain the effect. Not that there is no brain activity. You may be characterizing the nde community at large; But this has never been a falsification in the eyes of serious NDE researchers.I agree that this discovery is largely serendipitous.
The thing is though, the survivalists credo has always been "absolutely no brain activity possible during flat EEG".
As we see now, that was an argument from ignorance, not backed up by the extensive research necessary to prove a negative with such confidence.
If NDE research wasn't such an ideologically driven effort, the evidence could have been interpreted as tentative proof of unexpected brain activity at flat EEG.
The only one exception might indeed be Parnia, although he might be hedging his bets a bit
That has rarely ever been the reply of serious survivalist scientists like Parnia, Pim Van Lommel, and Fenwick. Their argument has always been that the amount of brain activity is INSUFFICIENT to explain the effect. Not that there is no brain activity. You may be characterizing the nde community at large; But this has never been a falsification in the eyes of serious NDE researchers.
Pin van Lommel and Ruud van Wees and Vincent Meyers and Ingrid Elfferich said:With lack of evidence for any other theories for NDE,the thus far assumed, but never proven, concept that consciousness and memories are localised in the brain should be discussed. How could a clear consciousness outside one’s body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG?22Also, in cardiac arrest the EEG usually becomes flat in most cases within about 10 s from onset of syncope.29,30Furthermore, blind people have described veridical perception during out-of-body experiences at the time of this experience.31NDE pushes at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind-brain relation."
We did not show that psychological, neurophysiological, or physiological factors caused these experiences after cardiac arrest. [..] And yet, neurophysiological processes must play some part in NDE. Similar experiences can be induced through electrical stimulation of the temporal lobe [..]
Exactly. I dont know if you were around for it, but Smithy actually emailed Pim Van Lommel and asked him for clarification about what he meant by flatline EEG. He stated that he meant that a flatline EEG did not mean that there was no actvitiy, or that there was no deep brain activity. He meant that the EEG measurements were insufficient to facilitate conscious awareness.Okay, I checked the paper.
There is a reference to this occurring when the brain "no longer functions"; though given twelve years have passed and this is posed as a question in the discussion section, I think we can forgive the paper for that.
They also acknowledged there was probably correlate phenomenon in the brain for the experience, but the work was not designed to find what it was.
The problem with introducing the argument from ignorance in regards to this condition is that the argument from ignorance can be used for everything, about everything.
And all coherent arguments for monism deny the existence of consciousness, which we know is silly.Unfortunately survival somewhat requires dualism, and dualism arguments are currently made from a disadvantage (e.g. it has to be dualism because of this list of exclusions, not because of inclusions.)
Unfortunately survival somewhat requires dualism, and dualism arguments are currently made from a disadvantage (e.g. it has to be dualism because of this list of exclusions, not because of inclusions.)