Pollux
New
Yeah, I can imagine that. Even the "exit" can feel unpleasant for some.
Brain wave measured 10 mins past death
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LetsEat
Member
I had heard Piper was a confirmed fraud (though this is said about every medium out there afaik) do you have anything to say about those claims if you are familiar? I remember reading about the many wonderful cases involving Piper in Craig Hogans 'Your Eternal Self'
Pollux
New
Yeah, not many people are particularly interesting in going back. :)
Just read about Pam Reynolds case, where she said that her uncle had to literally "throw her back" - and the shock she felt.
Jim_Smith
New
She wasn't a fraud. Skeptics should provide the same level of proof for accusations of fraud that they demand for proof of paranormal phenomena. What are the specific cases, statements, names of sitters, transcripts of sessions etc etc?
But I don't blame you for being unsure. I even read an article in the journal of the society for psychical research that tried to discredit her but the criticisms didn't hold up to what I knew about the original research reports on her mediumship. Michael Prescott took the time to go through that critique point by pont and demolished it:
http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2009/06/mrs-piper.html
Despite some tidbits of useful information, I find Munves' article, as whole, tendentious and unconvincing. The portrayal of early psychical researchers as hopelessly naive in matters of psychology is a caricature not supported by those researchers' own statements. The assertion that conditions at the Piper séances were criminally lax seems unjustified. The conspiracy theorizing about Pellew's death is doubtful, and the conclusions drawn from it regarding what the communicator "should have said" are even more dubious. Some very good evidence is downplayed or dismissed altogether, while questionable theories about cryptamnesia and unconscious cheating are put forward.
Unfortunately there is a lot of bias against afterlife research even among parapsychologists.
Here is what I have on Mrs Piper:
http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2009/05/further-record-of-observations-of.html
Richard Hodgson was a skeptic. He had investigated Madam Blavatsky and exposed her as a fraud. Hodgson's investigation of Mrs. Piper proved she was psychic. Her trance was genuine, it was not a normal state of consciousness. She gave sittings under controlled conditions. Sitters were not introduced to her by their correct names and most of the sitters were unknown to her. While she was in trance, she gave correct information about deceased individuals she could not have elicited by means of cold reading. She was watched by detectives and her mail was read to prove she did not investigate sitters before their sittings.
https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/skeptical_misdirection#skeptical_misdirection_next8
Martin Gardner wrote:
"Records of Mrs. Piper’s séances show plainly that her controls did an enormous amount of what was called 'fishing,' and today is called 'cold reading.' Vague statements would be followed by more precise information based on how sitters reacted. Mrs. Piper usually held a client’s hand throughout a sitting, sometimes holding the hand against her forehead. This made it easy to detect muscular responses even when a sitter was silent. Moreover, her eyes were often only half closed, allowing her to observe reactions."
However a commenter in Michael Prescott's Blog explains:Somehow, Gardner forgets to tell us that many of the readings involved proxy sitters - people who did not know the facts of the case they were inquiring about. Strange how this little fact was overlooked. Could Gardner have forgotten to mention it because cold reading is useless in a proxy sitting?
http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2007/08/how-martin-gard.htmlThe skeptical literature is not reliable.
https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/skeptical_misdirection
There are many examples of prominent skeptics who have obscured the truth. Skeptics often say that believers in the paranormal have been fooled by charlatans but it is the skeptics who have been fooled by prominent members of their community who seem to be more interested in winning the debate than in illuminating the truth. Skeptics often accuse mediums of preying on gullible people to make money but it is often the prominent skeptics who are trying to make money writing books and filming documentaries who are spreading misinformation in the pursuit of personal gain.
A good book about Mrs Piper is:
Resurrecting Leonora Piper: How Science Discovered the Afterlife by Michael Tymn
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Steve
Member
I have sometimes thought about aeroplane accidents, I probably had a fear of falling 39000 feet to my death, all the while anticipating that final impact!
It's a scary thought. I would hope that our consciousness leaves before that final impact, as you have described in the case of the skydiver, but who knows? Cockpit Voice Recorders (CVR) must record the pilots' innermost fears in such situations. My hope would be that while the 'bodies' continue to their deaths, doing everything that we might expect them to do, the conscious 'us' separates beforehand. The question of how we might be able to separate, if we do, but still keep the CVR data 'valid', is interesting. Maybe some answers can be found in the notion that consciousness can split into different bits, I have recently read that the soul might be incarnate as more than one individual, in different parts of the earth. I am sure that the Cosmic Consciousness, or whatever runs this show, must have perfected whatever method it uses by now? :)
Pollux
New
The shootdown of Malaysia Airlines MH17 in Ukraine was horrific. Many of the bodies cause of death was the impact with the ground, so they were alive as they were falling. Many of them still strapped in their seats.I have sometimes thought about aeroplane accidents, I probably had a fear of falling 39000 feet to my death, all the while anticipating that final impact!
Can you imagine the horror!?!
Here is some reports from some Ukrainian villager who saw it all;
In Rozsypne, Irina Tipunova described, like many other villagers, how the air had been filled with the sound of an explosion and then an unimaginable rain of human bodies falling from the sky, including one - an unidentified woman - through the roof of her home.
The 65-year-old pensioner said: “There was a howling noise and everything started to rattle. Then objects started falling out of the sky. And then I heard a roar and she landed in the kitchen, the roof was broken.”
The naked body of the MH17 passenger was today still lying inside the house, beside a bed. Ms Tipunova said: “The body's still here because they told me to wait for experts to come and get it.”
Another villager, in her 20s, added: “I opened the door and I saw people falling. One fell in my vegetable patch.”
Many of the dead remained strapped into their seats, fully clothed and apparently undisturbed by the violence of their passing. One witness described a ten-year-old boy for whom the only evidence of the trauma of his final moments was the look of fear frozen onto his face.
“I saw the bodies of a man and woman tangled together - as if they were hugging. They must have been sitting together. There was a whole line of bodies stretching away. There were between a dozen to two dozen bodies just off the road and it looked like that had been arranged.”
Others remarked on how passengers had been randomly stripped of clothing in their journey to the ground - one man still wore his Nike trainers but no trousers, another clad only in his socks. One child wore a t-shirt with the words “Don't Panic”.
In the words of one Ukrainian separatist fighter at the scene, it was as if they had been “undressed by the air”.
Source
The 65-year-old pensioner said: “There was a howling noise and everything started to rattle. Then objects started falling out of the sky. And then I heard a roar and she landed in the kitchen, the roof was broken.”
The naked body of the MH17 passenger was today still lying inside the house, beside a bed. Ms Tipunova said: “The body's still here because they told me to wait for experts to come and get it.”
Another villager, in her 20s, added: “I opened the door and I saw people falling. One fell in my vegetable patch.”
Many of the dead remained strapped into their seats, fully clothed and apparently undisturbed by the violence of their passing. One witness described a ten-year-old boy for whom the only evidence of the trauma of his final moments was the look of fear frozen onto his face.
“I saw the bodies of a man and woman tangled together - as if they were hugging. They must have been sitting together. There was a whole line of bodies stretching away. There were between a dozen to two dozen bodies just off the road and it looked like that had been arranged.”
Others remarked on how passengers had been randomly stripped of clothing in their journey to the ground - one man still wore his Nike trainers but no trousers, another clad only in his socks. One child wore a t-shirt with the words “Don't Panic”.
In the words of one Ukrainian separatist fighter at the scene, it was as if they had been “undressed by the air”.
Source
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Steve
Member
Yes, that's the sort of crash that comes to mind. Horrific!
One unusual, maybe twisted question.
If a Sky Marshall was on board, and decided to take his/her own life, by using his gun, how might this action be seen during his life review? I wonder if this would be viewed as questionable or acceptable under the circumstances.
Pollux
New
Yeah, the same thing with euthanasia when patients live with excruciating pain and the rest of their short life left is just going be more of the same - or worse.
Obiwan
Member
Piper wasn't a confirmed fraud as far as I know. One has to be very careful taking accusations of fraud seriously. Who is saying she was a fraud and under what circumstances? What was the rebuttal etc?
Typoz
Member
What if a Sky Marshall was on board, and floated free of his/her body and observed from a distance. How would that be viewed?Yes, that's the sort of crash that comes to mind. Horrific!
One unusual, maybe twisted question.
If a Sky Marshall was on board, and decided to take his/her own life, by using his gun, how might this action be seen during his life review? I wonder if this would be viewed as questionable or acceptable under the circumstances.
Seriously, during the life review, one is shown the consequences of one's actions from various perspectives, and possible alternative scenarios resulting from other actions might also be seen. Would any of the alternative scenarios have resulted in different consequences?
And of course the review is not for the purpose of 'passing judgement', but more as an understanding and explanation of events.
Steve
Member
Who knows what the purpose might be from different perspectives. Individuals may see their own actions as 'negative' even though that view is not shared by other parties.
There do appear to be some sort of consequences if you are a believer in Karma. I'm content with not knowing.
Typoz
Member
There's something that makes me uneasy about the position which you are suggesting, that we may take some action, which may have significant consequences, but we have no idea what they might be. It makes life itself seem pointless. Why choose any action over another?
My view is that we don't need to be concerned with the details, but we have an inner guidance system - if we would listen to it - which we can use to choose our actions.
As for karma, it's an idea which I think may be misunderstood or misused, I'm dropping it from my worldview as it seems to me more unhelpful than useful. What do I replace it with? A mix of other ideas, one of them being the idea of oneness, which is yet another idea which may be misunderstood, but I keep in my worldview because to me it is useful.
tim
New
I thought she was just the opposite, Obiwan, a confirmed genuine medium. Hodgson spent 20 years or so (is that correct) trying to find some evidence of fraud and there was nothing.
Steve
Member
I don't follow this?
Typoz
Member
I'm sure I didn't get your meaning too. But I thought you were saying there could be consequences but you didn't know what they were?
"There do appear to be some sort of consequences if you are a believer in Karma. I'm content with not knowing."
Unless you think this is important, maybe we should just drop it and move on.
LetsEat
Member
Thanks a bunch for this post, I'll be going through it.
LetsEat
Member
I never said I thought she was a fraud, proven or otherwise. I had said I had heard that she was
Typoz
Member
You are correct, and I don't mean this personally, it's more of a general comment, just about everything we discuss with regard to survival of consciousness has been dismissed somewhere, sometime, by someone. Perhaps there's a certain degree of responsibility to regard such dismissals with caution, otherwise one may inadvertently add undeserved momentum to a sceptical disinformation campaign. (Personally I know little about this specific example, and don't speak for or against the case).
Obiwan
Member
Indeed you didn't. I wasn't intending to suggest you did. Sorry if it didn't read that way.
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