Can't see "their faces" clearly in nde

Discussion in 'Consciousness & Science' started by tarantulanebula, Jul 9, 2018.

  1. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Messages:
    197
    Hello everyone in this nice forum.

    I found many many seriously strange problems in nde accounts narrations, among which I want to put forward one which is strangely widely commonly seen: the narration that nders often describe the people (souls, identities, whatever) they met in their nde as "can't see their faces clearly".

    I'm a Chinese living in China mainland. Even if large Chinese population now pays unfathomably little to absolutely no interests in near death experience, I still stumbled across several nde narrations in some of my native forums.

    I also had several interactions, talking, asking & answers with those who shared their ndes.

    Despite my native country and my native people have large disparities and discrepancies with westerners, I noticed this description is too identically shared among nders from both my native country and western.

    I often see western nde's account says the experiencer met someone in his/her nde, but "can't see his/her face clearly". Some nders from my native country said the same description, they couldn't see those people's faces clearly.

    I had asked nders from both western and my native country several times: "if you couldn't see their faces clearly, how could you identify who they were?"

    They always give me answers similar to this: "I couldn't see his/her faces clearly, but I knew it was him/her once I met him/her in my nde."

    But, how? How could they know? I never asked further, because it seems to me that I were not to find any reasonable answers if I should ask further.

    What's your opinions on this? I don't seriously want to propose the idea that that is very very like a trick from some alien forces, an unclear mimic illusion created by some esoteric techniques unfathomable to current human technology. But if the truth is not like this, there should be some other reasonable explanations, right?

    I do not propose that those were fake images created by some alien forces. And imagine if I did propose this idea, I would not further suggest that those alien forces tricked humans with a vicious purpose. I understand that, considering how powerful their influences imbued in human, if they were purely vicious, they could have erased all of us without too much efforts or time. Or if they were actually truly vicious, then they should be vicious in a way completely unfathomable to us and they should hold a completely unfathomable purpose.

    Forget the above paragraph, if "alien intervention in nde" is an explanation out of the list of consideration, how could we give an explanation for too widely seen description: "nders couldn't see their faces clearly in nde, but insist on that they know who they were"?
     
  2. I have taken classes in communicating with spirits. I wrote about them on my web site, : https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/psi_experience

    When I would communicate with a spirit I would get a feeling of their personality. It's hard to describe, maybe gestalt is the closest word. If the spirit was someone you knew in life, you could recognize them by their gestalt. Once you communicated with a spirit, you could recognize them again later by their gestalt. That is why this form of mediumship (mental mediumship) is often more reliable in certain ways than other forms such as oui-ja board - because the medium can recognize the spirit - the spirit cannot lie about its personality.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
    tarantulanebula likes this.
  3. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Messages:
    197
    Thank you for your efforts in the research regarding spirits communication and recognition methods by personality and spirits' gestalt, and thank you for sharing the idea with me.

    But, how could you know the case is like what you described above? How could you know that there is no other explanation? Like, the gestalt you recognized is created by a more complicated force (like aliens) using more complex illusory mechanism and with a more hidden-in-the-darkness purpose? How could you know that it can't be, like, the cases are even more complex and there are even more conspiracies behind all these?

    When there can be infinite various possibilities, and when I can't be sure about the easy, simple and happy one, I always choose to consider the bad ones. My past experiences taught me, the truth is always more complex, and is often worse, than the first impression I firstly happily and easily pick up.
     
  4. Did you know you are really a butterfly dreaming you are a human?
     
  5. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Messages:
    197
    Thank you for bringing up this nonce formation. I know, since you know that I'm a Chinese, you kindly bring up the famous philosophical question started by an ancient Chinese sage named Zhuang Zi, or Zhuang Zhou, I don't remember exactly. :D

    I understand many Chinese people are proud of our long civilized and recorded history and the cultural traditions, including these sages and what they said hundreds or thousands years ago.

    I'm not proud of these, different than many of my native people, because I think they lack amount of information. They are not a symbol of wisdom but a sign of pristine ignorance of ancient people. Ancient people thought too less, not too much, because they lack amount of information. Though, in those times with scarce of information, those who could start some philosophical questions, deserve to be called sages. But their thoughts legacies shed no light on what we modern people wish to know, thus are quite, out of date.

    But I know you wish to bring up such a question that, as human beings, we are actually leading an obscure life, when our true self and our complete consciousness wake up, we will find that this life of us on earth is only a dream, which is less real than that waking realm. And in this dream, our spirits are limited, our recognition to the other people often by their visage appearances is only a suppressed, limited and partial manifestation of their complete self, namely their gestalt.

    Thus, when we recognize someone in this "dream" - the illusory life on the earth, we thought we recognize him/her by his/her appearance, visage, facial features, action styles, these are all wrong. We recognize them by a suppressed, limited, partial form of their true self, their spirit, or say, their gestalt. When we meet them in that waking and beyond realm, we will recognize their complete form, their gestalt, and we will not need to refer to their appearance, visage, facial features any more, because these are only their temporarily showing up in a dream.

    Correct me if the above paragraph is not what you wish to bring up. ;)

    I don't believe these.

    If people's identities are ultimately represented by their gestalt, rather than by their appearance, visage, facial features, this kind of "gestalt" should contain astronomically larger amount of information than "their appearance in their physical body in this life".

    I can't see, and I won't believe, that anyone can recognize anything without being able to see clearly as much as the amount of information than people's physical appearance in this earthly life. If spiritual realm is true, there can only be larger amount of information in there, not smaller.

    I accept that this life of us might be an illusion, but this life of us is abundant of information, our recognition to different people is based upon very large amount of information regarding their physical appearance in this life.

    When nders say that, "they can't see their faces clearly", I'm afraid this is very like a trick to deny or try to cover the fact that there is scarcity of information, for that there might be some inability and lack of function in some illusion generator systems used by some alien forces.

    All the things about the gestalt in the claimed spiritual realm, the people nders claimed that they saw in their experiences, convey very scarce amount of information to us, less information than this life of us, their faces were less clear than when they should be on earth. Can this be considered a sign of spiritual realm? No. This is a strong sign and warning of the likelihood of deception. Don't you feel strange? You really feel safe to say that, the conspiracy is not a candidate of reasonable explanation in higher priority? Lack of information is almost always a sign of something completely not nice to behold.

    Look, consider all what we know from these phenomena, deception by some alien forces is a candidate of reasonable explanation with higher priority than the explanation of a wonderful spiritual realm.
     
    hypermagda likes this.
  6. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    83
    [​IMG] Not communicating but also understanding is one of the common features of nde, too early for us to conclude anything unless we experience it ourselves. As far as ancient philosophers are concerned, their philosophy is still evolving if we know how to use it
    As for nde, you can not conclude prematurely that it is a trick or anything, people who have experienced nde have the ability to absorb a large amount of information and manipulate it. of the material brain, I do not think they will describe something clear about the afterlife. People are always talking about super-realistic experiences and describing themselves as being in harmony so it does not seem like a trick because of the lack of information that simply can not be described through language. I also had a spiritual experience and believe me to go with the amount of information that I experienced when trying to recall it. I was almost overwhelmed and everything became blurry.
    And we do not even know what kind of information they receive and how they handle it.And I forget one thing, the facial recognition function is a physical shortcut in the brain, so if you look at it in a multi-dimensional way, I do not think there's anything wrong.Identification functions involve certain parts of the brain, autistic children who are unable to recognize the face when the area is destroyed. Recognizing a face in a materialistic way is like comparing a face with a fixed texture.and in a state of spirituality and information I do not think there will be a material fixation, the things depicted are simply translated through the brain.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
    nbtruthman likes this.
  7. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    4,344
    Well another common remark from NDErs, is that communication happens telepathically - mind to mind communication - so maybe people reporting that they don't see the fair faces clearly have focused on this new form of communication - which must be overwhelming - analogous to a blind man who suddenly regains his sight.

    I think some people want to try to pick these stories apart. This is fine up to a point, but expecting an NDE to proceed rather like meeting someone at the supermarket checkout, is probably pretty naive!

    David
     
    tarantulanebula likes this.
  8. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Messages:
    197
    What you said are a possibility, a candidate of explanation.

    There is another possibility, mutual deception and self deception are also a common habit shared among many people. Mutual deception and self deception also are sometimes very needed and important to some people. Compare drug addict, alcohol addict, not every needed thing is good.

    Not everything which lacks amount of information is a deceit, but notice that every deceit always lacks amount of information in one way or another.

    When you feel something seems real, but can't see some aspects of it clearly, this is always very strange, and is strongly leading to a possibility of illusion.

    I do not agree "recognizing a face in a materialistic way is like comparing a human with a fixed texture", people's visages are more subtle and more complex than this. By clearly seeing a person's face, you can observe his/her tiny facial expressions and these reveal some of his/her characteristics, habit, mood, which are highly difficult to mimic by someone else, or, a fake and reproduced image.

    Different people should have different reactions to a being with his/her face unclearly seen. For example, someone might be curious that whether the being he/she saw in that experience was seeing him/her in a similar way. So the experiencer might ask: "I can't see your face clearly, can you see mine clearly? If not, what my face looks like?"

    No one asked this question. It seems that they are not very sane in those experiences.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
    Number 22 likes this.
  9. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

    Joined:
    May 23, 2015
    Messages:
    197
    I agree with what you said. I understand that those experiences can't be the same with our everyday meeting, and some parts are difficult to describe using our earthly knowledge and language.

    But different people should have different reactions to a being with a face unclearly seen. For example, someone might be curious that whether the being he/she saw in that experience was seeing him/her in a similar way. So the experiencer might ask: "I can't see your face clearly, can you see mine clearly? If not, what my face looks like?"

    Dear David, I feel strange about this, and I wonder, don't you also feel strange, that why no one ever asked any "characterized" question like the example I made above? I feel there should be many people who would ask many many diverse questions when in that kind of situation.

    It seems that they are not very sane in those experiences, and their curiosity, doubt, vigilant, questioning instincts are somehow suppressed or controlled in those experiences.
     
  10. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    83
    I'm not sure, but it's too early to conclude anything.
    You can ask some nde researcher.
    But if it is an alien technology then it must be spiritual technology, but if the technology must be clear.
    I would choose this as a constraint in the material world. Because in the state of nde people will not be motivated by biological instincts, and at the same time may be in that state just as we look at some pieces of meat made from a pile of molecules of energy, when we come back We use the brain to associate a particular image.
    Some autistic children are unlikely to see clearly. But they still se other things clearly, which makes facial features seem to have been humanized by our brains, many of which are not. I see a lot of things like not communicating, but I do not think we can apply any normal thinking to mind problems. spirit. Reading facial expressions and facial expressions is like a communication code in the physical world, knowing the face is meaningless in the non-physical world. When a part of the brain is damaged, we will not be able to clearly identify that information, but we will still be able to recognize it. Language and language functions are similar. In the nde state, it seems that these two things do not exist.
    When you look at a ground with gravel on it, you may associate it with the human face. But if there is no such function you simply see the pebbles.
    The brain is a translation machine, for example, the flies will never be able to see the human face because the brain has a different texture. But when it is in the spiritual world it is simply drifting between information.
    Perhaps we have to experience it ourselves to perceive the problem. Perhaps in our spiritual state we are part of a multidimensional stream of information that is chaotic and conceives of all possibilities, when our bodies re-materialize
    But at the same time I also see many cases where people in nde describe the spiritual creatures and other people in the obe.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
    tarantulanebula likes this.
  11. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    4,344
    My impression is that in an NDE (I have never had one), there is a sense of waking up to information that you knew before. In other words you realise once again that direct mental communication is the norm and the methods used while we are alive are crude and approximate.

    If, say, you have a dream about your wife, you don't puzzle that she looks different after you wake up!

    David
     
    tarantulanebula and Number 22 like this.

Share This Page