Mod+ David Jacobs False Claims about John Mack During Skeptiko Interview

Mike Clelland said: "...to reject the spiritual component to the UFO abduction phenomenon takes willful denial."

i've been following Mr. Tsakarisis' interviews with Jacobs and the forum discussions with great interest. I have been interested in and reading widely on ufo related events, including interaction with beings, since around 1970, when i was eight. Even then, the first thing which captured my attention was the striking psychological/spiritual/ontological reactions of the witnesses, which did not seem to follow from the physical reports (seeing a bright light in the sky, for example, or a strange machine). Mr. Clelland encapsulates my reaction to Jacobs' work quite succintly and accurately.

And this is the reason I have never cared for Jacobs's work. He is quite obviously putting a major spin on whatever evidence he claims he is gathering, nevermind the recklessness of generating altered states of consciousness in people who's very ground of reality has been shaken by their encounter with the unknown.

Hello Saiko. "You are taking a person's reaction to an event and using it as a description of the event itself." No, Mike Clelland is not. If you actually took the time and attention to go to his website and spend a while reading his writings and listening to his interviews with dozens of witnesses, you would become very aware of Mr. Clelland's excruciating approach to these events, teasing apart what a person could see, what they could hear, what they were feeling, what they were thinking, what about the other people, trace evidence, and etc. Mike is simply reporting what many many of these witnesses say, themselves, is part of what they experienced. Even Vallee, trained as a physical scientist, talks about this aspect of the phenomenon extensively and points out that this side of the topic frankly has a much more profound effect on society at large, as well as individuals.

I have said it before and i will say it again right now. The best intro to the various aspects of this phenomenon is Vallee's Contact trilogy : Confrontations, Dimensions, Revelations. Saiko, you'll be happy to hear that Confrontations focuses quite strongly on the variety of physical evidence. Mike Clelland's work is a fantastic collection which truly reflects the depth of the impact of this phenomenon on the people who come in contact with it.

Anyone looking for truly ground-breaking work on the abduction aspect of the ufo field would be better served by reading Ann Druffel and Scott Rogo's book "The Tujunga Canyon Contacts", published in 1980. Much to the authors' credit, the book contains two 'wrap up' chapters where each author lays out their own, differing, interpretation of the events and facts. (As a side note, Mrs. Druffel brings up the possibility of djinn involvement in these encounters a good three decades before Rosemary Ellen Guiley jumped on the bandwagon, without referencing Mrs. Druffel's work.) Sadly Scott Rogo was murdered not long after the book was published, but Mrs. Druffel is still alive and writing.

I am sad to say i will not be able to respond to any questions/comments, i am over-booked as it is and really don't have time to even post this comment. But. as a long-time observer of the ufo/abduction field, i had to pop in to very heartily second Mike Clelland's observation on Dave Jacobs' pig-headed tunnel vision ("pig-headed" is my own adjective, Mike is too nice a guy to say anything that crude). Happy Day All! steph
 
Wow. I thought the letter from the Mack Institute lacked class.

If they thought Dr. Jacobs mischaracterized Mack and got his facts wrong, it would have been enough to clarify that in a professional manner. Instead, they try to position Jacobs as a buffoon who refused to accept "reality".

These are two investigators with different approaches. That is science.

"If the aliens are simply aliens in the traditional sense, or if they are from some higher level of reality (and the reality may be a bit of both!), what matters is how they transform people".

The Mack Institute has proclaimed "what matters" ... to Dr. Mack. What matters to other investigators is: Do abductions occur? If so, how? Who are the abductors and what is their objective? Why do abductees report being presented with weird, faulty simulations of ordinary human scenarios?

Where does this appear to be going? Can they be made to stop? Are these Out of Body experiences? If so, why do abductees wake up in others' pajamas?

As to the Mack Institute's statement about confabulation, I think they misrepresented Jacobs' procedure. He had to ascertain what happened and what was invented, so he deliberately questioned abductees about elements none had ever reported. If the interviewee rejected those fabrications, it would suggest that his story is more likely to be true. I think he adequately made the case for that method.
 
Hello Saiko. "You are taking a person's reaction to an event and using it as a description of the event itself." No, Mike Clelland is not.

I see nothing in your post that refutes my viewpoint. The point is that there are many physical experiences that individuals have experienced as transformative, spiritually awakening, etc. So that abduction by unknown entities would have that effect is unremarkable. Whether a person experiences an event as spiritually expanding, traumatic or both is a reaction.

As I explained that isn't the debate. The debate is that some think there aren't events happening physically. They tie them to instances of experiencing meeting angels, spirits, demons, etc and conclude that all such experiences are happening non-physically and the description of physical events is just the individual's attempt to translate what happened into concrete terms.

Jacobs' focus on researching the physical events is no more "pig-headed" - IMO less so - than those who are convinced that the experiences are not happening physically.

Beyond that, some of your comments seem to show that you make the common mistake of seeing your own preferred viewpoints as being the facts.
 
These are two investigators with different approaches. That is science.

Yes . .and, unfortunately, no. It is science in the ideal sense. In actual practice, researchers aligning with those who favor their methodology and conclusions while attempting to discredit the findings of researchers who don't is the norm.
 
I'd also like to thank K9 for this! One of the great things about Skeptiko, is that guests are held to acount for what they say - Alex cross checked what Wiseman said vs what Rupert said, etc. At the time I heard Jacobs speak that way about John Mack's work, I cringed, because you just don't dismiss someone like that after they have died!

David
 
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Very well done and many thanks, K9. The fact that Jacob's statement has been refuted by Bueche (who also deserves a hearty round of applause) confirms my suspicions about, and my distrust of, him. John Mack was an altogether more serious and open-minded researcher, and it's about time I added his Passport to the Cosmos to my Amazon wish list. I definitely won't be spending any money on Jacobs or Hopkins.

Thanks for the book title. While I am very familiar with NDE research, I know little about alien abductions. I just bought Passport to the Cosmos for my kindle :)

Perhaps someone who is knowledgeable about the subject could create a "must read" list?
 
Perhaps someone who is knowledgeable about the subject could create a "must read" list?
Hi Weedar, I created links to recommendations in this post:
http://www.skeptiko.com/forum/threa...-alien-abduction-stories.289/page-3#post-5169

From perusing a lot of these lists and having started to acquire a lot of those books, I think the following would be on that list (I've added the authors who've been on the podcast):

Janet Colli. Sacred Encounters. 2007.
Anne Druffel. The Tujunga Canyon Contacts. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall, 1980.
Raymond E. Fowler. The Allagash Abductions. Tigard, OR: Wildflower Press, 1993.
-----------------. The Andreasson Affair. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall, 1979.
-----------------. The Andreasson Affair--Phase Two. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall, 1982.
Budd Hopkins. Missing Time. New York: Richard Marek Publishers, 1981.
-----------------. Intruders: The Incredible Visitations at Copley Woods. New York: Random House, 1987.
-----------------. Witnessed: The Brooklyn Bridge Abductions. New York: Pocket Books, 1996.
David M. Jacobs. The Threat. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1998.
David M. Jacobs (Ed.) UFOs and Abductions: Challenging the Borders of Knowledge. 2000. (includes chapters by Mack and Hopkins, among others.)
John Keel. The Mothman Prophecies. 1975.
John E. Mack. Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens. New York: Scribners, 1994.
-----------------. Passport to the Cosmos. 1999.
Mary Rodwell. Awakening. 2010
Andy Sixkiller Clarke. Encounters with Star People. 2012.
Whitley Strieber. Communion. New York: Morrow, 1987.
Karla Turner. Taken. Roland, AK: Kelt Works, 1994.
Travis Walton. Fire in the Sky. 1996.

Some of these are out of print, unfortunately, and even second hand copies are very expensive (e.g. Walton).

EDIT: Mike Clelland has visited the forum. Since two of those links I posted are from his site, it would be great if he gave his input as to what he considers "musts"! :)
 
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Hi Weedar, I created links to recommendations in this post:
http://www.skeptiko.com/forum/threa...-alien-abduction-stories.289/page-3#post-5169

From perusing a lot of these lists and having started to acquire a lot of those books, I think the following would be on that list (I've added the authors who've been on the podcast):

Janet Colli. Sacred Encounters. 2007.
Anne Druffel. The Tujunga Canyon Contacts. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall, 1980.
Raymond E. Fowler. The Allagash Abductions. Tigard, OR: Wildflower Press, 1993.
-----------------. The Andreasson Affair. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall, 1979.
-----------------. The Andreasson Affair--Phase Two. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall, 1982.
Budd Hopkins. Missing Time. New York: Richard Marek Publishers, 1981.
-----------------. Intruders: The Incredible Visitations at Copley Woods. New York: Random House, 1987.
-----------------. Witnessed: The Brooklyn Bridge Abductions. New York: Pocket Books, 1996.
David M. Jacobs. The Threat. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1998.
David M. Jacobs (Ed.) UFOs and Abductions: Challenging the Borders of Knowledge. 2000. (includes chapters by Mack and Hopkins, among others.)
John Keel. The Mothman Prophecies. 1975.
John E. Mack. Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens. New York: Scribners, 1994.
-----------------. Passport to the Cosmos. 1999.
Mary Rodwell. Awakening. 2010
Andy Sixkiller Clarke. Encounters with Star People. 2012.
Whitley Strieber. Communion. New York: Morrow, 1987.
Karla Turner. Taken. Roland, AK: Kelt Works, 1994.
Travis Walton. Fire in the Sky. 1996.

Some of these are out of print, unfortunately, and even second hand copies very expensive (e.g. Walton).

Thanks a lot! :)
 
Sorry, I'm a newbie but I had to laugh out loud at this! Is this a joke or does this actually happen? Could you specifiy which incident this refers to?
I thought I'd come across this too but can't remember what it was. Just found this bit online:

It was when he began to talk about other "proofs" that he began to lose me--and I wondered how he had been able to retain Mack's interest. For example, the problem with clothes. Hopkins mentioned one abductee who woke up wearing lavender underwear, and she owns no lavender underwear because she hates the color. Others wake up with pajama bottoms several sizes too small--clearly not their own; or with bottoms and tops reversed.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200910/the-harvard-professor-the-ufos

Waking up with pyjamas/pajamas backwards seems frequent enough.
"We've been experiencing these things since we were really young children, even in the crib," Starborn said. "We'd wake up in reverse beds and in reverse pajamas. That always had us a little bit confused. We'd be scared to go to bed, and we'd tell our parents 'the bald man's coming.' "
http://www.pressherald.com/life/take-me-to-your-readers_2012-09-06.html?pagenum=full

Or see:
http://www.abduct.com/contact/c52.php
 
Thanks, Ian. That Psychology Today article sure paints Mack to be wild-eyed. But this was before he moderated his stance and prior to his publication of his second book, right? I don't know much about the details here, but from what I can gather, the only comment I can make is: Mack just did not know enough about the UFO realm when he was interviewed. I'm sure he hadn't read Vallee and may have fallen for the nuts and bolts UFO idea, and may not have recognized the fairy/leprochaun link made by Vallee and Keel. As he became knowledgeable, however, I assume he acknowledge his mistake and moved away from Hopkins. Or did he?

As for the misplaced pajamas, I just find this to be comical since it implies inept materialization, given what the abductors are capable of. (And the author seems to concur.)

Waking up with pyjamas/pajamas backwards seems frequent enough.
 
Thanks, Ian. That Psychology Today article sure paints Mack to be wild-eyed.
Yes, I just linked it because I googled and found the pajama bit in it.

I'm sure he hadn't read Vallee and may have fallen for the nuts and bolts UFO idea, and may not have recognized the fairy/leprochaun link made by Vallee and Keel. As he became knowledgeable, however, I assume he acknowledge his mistake and moved away from Hopkins. Or did he?
I haven't read Mack yet, but I've got his first book which references Vallée. My impression through different interviews was that he thought "abductions" were the result of both physical beings and non-physical beings. However, the contents of his last book seem to suggest he wanted us to move away from that dichotomy:
http://johnemackinstitute.org/books-by-john-e-mack/

I'll leave it to others more informed than I to give a more precise answer.
 
Hi Ian Gordon! i'm always interested to see 'intro to ufo' lists, i wish there were more of them. I think it's a pretty overwhelming field for the newcomer to wrap their minds around and these lists can only help. I always rec Jacques Vallee's Contact Trilogy (Confrontations, Dimensions, Revelations) as he does a great job of addressing the strictly physical aspect, the emotional/spiritual/paranormal aspects and the human deception/psyops area. As a bonus they're cheap as chips. :)

I noticed you rec'd Budd Hopkins' book on the Linda Cortile case, Witnessed. Readers may be interested in these papers written by George Hansen (and others) which discuss the same case:

A Critique of Budd Hopkins' Case of the UFO Abduction of Linda Napolitano by George Hansen, Joseph J. Stefula, Richard D. Butler

"Torquemada" Responds to Jerome Clark by George Hansen


Attempted Murder vs.The Politics of Ufology: A Question of Priorities in the Linda Napolitano Case by George P. Hansen
Happy Reading All!!! steph
 
Hi Ian Gordon! i'm always interested to see 'intro to ufo' lists, i wish there were more of them. I think it's a pretty overwhelming field for the newcomer to wrap their minds around and these lists can only help.
Hi Mrs. E.! :)

FYI, I started this link on general UFO book recommendations on the Other Stuff part of the forum. A member of the previous forum, Kingtal, had helped out a lot with these:
http://www.skeptiko.com/forum/threads/ufo-book-reading-recommendations.146/
Maybe post your additions there as well!

I'm a relative newbie - always saw a lot of UFO docs, never took the time to do the actual reading, mostly figuring "how do you sort out the wheat from the chaff in this area?" But through help from forum members, I see this is now possible.. I'm now doing some serious book-reading catching-up on UFOs in general, before I go through the abductions' list. I hope to definitely top it all off with Vallée's books. :)

Right this moment I'm in the Roswell maze. Friedman with Crash at Corona had me convinced a crash occurred with aliens in it (or two crashes rather), then Pflock with Roswell Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe pretty much turned me completely around and brought me to believe it was most likely a Mogul balloon Project, but now reading Friedman's Top Secret/MAJIC, he's got me seriously considering the validity of the Majestic-12 document. :D

I noticed Mac Tonnies on Amazon had given a very positive review to the skeptical Pflock book:
Pflock's "Roswell" is probably one of the most important contributions to ufology in the last ten years. Pflock's thorough exploration of the events of July, 1947 are revealing, insightful, and--best of all--credible. "Roswell" is healthy skepticism with muscle and intellect, and a positively delicious read for truth-seekers disillusioned by Kal Korff's whiny, unconvincing tome on the subject.

Like Pflock, I've long been a Roswell agnostic. The evidence assembled here has, I'm afraid, pushed me into the skeptics' corner for good. Maybe I'm wrong--and, to be sure, there's always that slightly disturbing wish that I am--and new evidence will surface that makes the extraterrestrial crash hypothesis more attractive. In the meantime, Pflock's work is very likely to remain the definitive resource on the subject.

There's only one catch: to appreciate "Roswell," it's best to be versed in dissenting opinions. I highly recommend Kevin Randle's fascinating "The Roswell Encyclopedia" and Stanton Friedman's "TOP SECRET/MAJIC" as cogent arguments from the "believers'" perspective.
http://www.amazon.com/review/R3LW87...e=UTF8&ASIN=1573928941&linkCode=&nodeID=&tag=
 
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