Death Penalty and the Afterlife

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Sciborg_S_Patel

#1
The abortion thread got me thinking -> I'd be curious if belief in the afterlife influences whether or not people are against the death penalty. Would immortality of the soul be enough? If you knew the death penalty might land someone in a state of long or even eternal post-life suffering would you change your mind? What if you knew souls were reincarnated to cleanse of karmic imbalance?

Talking to a friend who believes himself to have been reincarnated, as well as believing in something akin to White Lodge and Black Lodge contesting in a Manichean sense -- his belief in these things made him adamantly against the death penalty.

His reasoning was that killing killers in this fashion actually releases that Evil into this world and the subtle worlds.

In case it matters or anyone is curious I've almost always been strongly against the death penalty, though I would say it's a moral intuition that came before any reasoned arguments. In fact even now I would probably be hard pressed to debate it, it is one of those things that just feels wrong. Perhaps it's conditioning, an excess of mirror-neurons, or maybe I somehow sense the kind of reality my friend sees...
 
#3
It has influenced my own opinion to some extent. I am against the death-penalty, for a number of reasons, but the survivalist element, which is what the OP was after I think, comes from the teachings of Silver Birch and from a curious recording from a Leslie Flint seance, during which former English Law Lords seemed to discuss the impact and implications of launching people into the afterlife in this way and pleaded for us not to do it.
http://www.leslieflint.com/lords-birkett-birkenhead

As has been said 'an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind'.
 
#4
I'd be curious if belief in the afterlife influences whether or not people are against the death penalty.
I used to be in favor of the death penalty for certain crimes. But when I learned about the afterlife, I found out that it is better to keep them alive because they have a better chance of changing while they are incarnated. That's the whole point of incarnation it is easier to make progress. Also, when someone dies a natural death they are prepared for the afterlife, but in a sudden death like an execution, they are more likely to become earth bound where as a spirit they are capable of exerting a bad influencing the living.
 
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Sciborg_S_Patel

#6
I have never been in favour of capital punishment.

If the state can find a 'good' reason to murder someone, then all of us can.
This is where I lean...though at times I could see why the state would need to implement the death penalty. For example if India instituted a death penalty for rape following the numerous attacks I could possibly see why it would be done though my worries about implementation and feeling about the State taking life ultimately make me against it.
 
#7
I can see that my thinking is heavily swayed by my worldview Sci. As I said elsewhere, I feel more religious than ever, yet at the same time more apart from conventional religion, or at least a lot of it. Although I can not ever remember having a different view on this subject, or any of the 'big' topics. It is easy to think up examples where one might say it is justifiable for the state to kill such as the one you gave, but I feel certain that ultimately in the future there will be no death penalties anywhere. Maybe my thinking is flawed for the present time, but fortunately I don't have the responsibility of a law keeper.

Maybe if people like me were suddenly given such responsibility our ideas would be forced to change from theory to practice?

I sometimes wonder if I had a near death experience, if I could ask to see how the world would be with my own philosophy in charge. To see snapshots of how it is now, to how it might be under 'SteveLaw' the world over. We might be really disappointed, or very pleased. I think that the global consciousness would have to be in step with any ideas at any given period to avoid chaos. Maybe chaos has to ensue first as we're seeing now? I'm finding it hard to stay positive, I definitely can see why many others find it harder.

Does our thinking affect our own life? How much?
 
#10
The abortion thread got me thinking -> I'd be curious if belief in the afterlife influences whether or not people are against the death penalty.
Well, from a rational perspective it absolutely should. We kill people because we want to punish them, and since we view death as something undesirable. But the NDE evidence paints an entirely different picture of death altogether. I wouldn't even call it the death penalty, but rather the death ultra-gift.

That's the thing nobody wants to talk about and acknowledge - if the NDE is real, then death is no longer bad. If death no longer is bad, how is it wrong to kill anybody? Torture them, imprison them, those things are still bad, yes. But killing them? How? You're sending them straight to paradise.

Would immortality of the soul be enough? If you knew the death penalty might land someone in a state of long or even eternal post-life suffering would you change your mind? What if you knew souls were reincarnated to cleanse of karmic imbalance?
Well, if you knew that, sure. But that's absolutely not how any sane and compassionate afterlife would operate.

Reports from deep NDEs are rather painting the picture that we choose these lives because they're interesting, knowing we will all play different roles. And some of us do choose to play the bad guys, and everyone is entirely fine with that. There is no punishment in the afterlife for doing things that humans on Earth consider bad. It's not going to be on our conscience there, it's not going to force another unpleasant incarnation. We choose these lives and there's zero consequences to them, save for our own opinion about them in the life review. That's all there is to it. Even if we go full Hitler or Breivik, we still go straight to Heaven when we die, and no one will say "Oh you bad boy you shouldn't have done that!" - even if we're solely responsible for nuking this entire planet to pieces. If you think this one out of endless possible physical worlds matter, you're just too caught up in the game to see the larger picture. It's here for us all to explore all the possibilities we're interested in exploring, and nothing is ever denied us.

Rather, once we arrive on the other side, even if we do nuke the planet to pieces, we will judge our own lives just like everyone else, and our overall reaction will more or less always be "Oh, so that's how that's like! I wonder what it would be like to do it a little bit different this way..." It's just not a big deal, no matter what anyone does here. The only thing that remotely matters is your own development (how loving you've been), not what happens to society or the planet. They're both doomed in the long run anyway and there are countless others we can incarnate into if some of our dreams were left frustrated by this incarnation (although keep in mind, some of us came here to experience what it's like to have our dreams frustrated). How's that for a meta-perspective?

I used to be in favor of the death penalty for certain crimes. But when I learned about the afterlife, I found out that it is better to keep them alive because they have a better chance of changing while they are incarnated. That's the whole point of incarnation it is easier to make progress.
I'm not so sure about that, mainly because of the fact that death is part of incarnation, and how we die, and for what reason under what circumstances, are part of whatever growth incarnation may be about as well. Otherwise, you wouldn't have a system designed in such a way that many are allowed to die young, be murdered, etc.

Heaven surely didn't make a mistake in designing this place, and no one would come here in the first place if it in any way jeopardized their spot back home in heaven.

Also, when someone dies a natural death they are prepared for the afterlife, but in a sudden death like an execution, they are more likely to become earth bound where as a spirit they are capable of exerting a bad influencing the living.
No. You forget natural phenomena like natural disaster, heart attacks, attacks by wild animals, etc. Additionally, state executions usually take many years to happen, and people certainly get the time to prepare mentally for them. And finally, no one sticks around as a ghost. That's a human belief based on their extremely limited ability to understand the non-physical. Everyone goes to heaven as soon as they die if we are to believe NDErs. But we don't even have to believe them, we can just ask a simple question: What would you rather do if you found yourself outside of your body - go to ultrabliss-land, or float around watching what people on Earth did? I mean even if you have a tremendous interest in what happens to this planet, you can still do that while in the light. Everyone of us, after all, is a big brother show to everyone in heaven that they can zap over to, if they feel like it.
 
#11
Well, from a rational perspective it absolutely should. We kill people because we want to punish them, and since we view death as something undesirable. But the NDE evidence paints an entirely different picture of death altogether. I wouldn't even call it the death penalty, but rather the death ultra-gift.

That's the thing nobody wants to talk about and acknowledge - if the NDE is real, then death is no longer bad. If death no longer is bad, how is it wrong to kill anybody? Torture them, imprison them, those things are still bad, yes. But killing them? How? You're sending them straight to paradise.



Well, if you knew that, sure. But that's absolutely not how any sane and compassionate afterlife would operate.

Reports from deep NDEs are rather painting the picture that we choose these lives because they're interesting, knowing we will all play different roles. And some of us do choose to play the bad guys, and everyone is entirely fine with that. There is no punishment in the afterlife for doing things that humans on Earth consider bad. It's not going to be on our conscience there, it's not going to force another unpleasant incarnation. We choose these lives and there's zero consequences to them, save for our own opinion about them in the life review. That's all there is to it. Even if we go full Hitler or Breivik, we still go straight to Heaven when we die, and no one will say "Oh you bad boy you shouldn't have done that!" - even if we're solely responsible for nuking this entire planet to pieces. If you think this one out of endless possible physical worlds matter, you're just too caught up in the game to see the larger picture. It's here for us all to explore all the possibilities we're interested in exploring, and nothing is ever denied us.

Rather, once we arrive on the other side, even if we do nuke the planet to pieces, we will judge our own lives just like everyone else, and our overall reaction will more or less always be "Oh, so that's how that's like! I wonder what it would be like to do it a little bit different this way..." It's just not a big deal, no matter what anyone does here. The only thing that remotely matters is your own development (how loving you've been), not what happens to society or the planet. They're both doomed in the long run anyway and there are countless others we can incarnate into if some of our dreams were left frustrated by this incarnation (although keep in mind, some of us came here to experience what it's like to have our dreams frustrated). How's that for a meta-perspective?



I'm not so sure about that, mainly because of the fact that death is part of incarnation, and how we die, and for what reason under what circumstances, are part of whatever growth incarnation may be about as well. Otherwise, you wouldn't have a system designed in such a way that many are allowed to die young, be murdered, etc.

Heaven surely didn't make a mistake in designing this place, and no one would come here in the first place if it in any way jeopardized their spot back home in heaven.



No. You forget natural phenomena like natural disaster, heart attacks, attacks by wild animals, etc. Additionally, state executions usually take many years to happen, and people certainly get the time to prepare mentally for them. And finally, no one sticks around as a ghost. That's a human belief based on their extremely limited ability to understand the non-physical. Everyone goes to heaven as soon as they die if we are to believe NDErs. But we don't even have to believe them, we can just ask a simple question: What would you rather do if you found yourself outside of your body - go to ultrabliss-land, or float around watching what people on Earth did? I mean even if you have a tremendous interest in what happens to this planet, you can still do that while in the light. Everyone of us, after all, is a big brother show to everyone in heaven that they can zap over to, if they feel like it.
If NDE evidence was all we had that might be reasonable. It isn't however and much ADC communication conflicts with that view.
 
#12
If NDE evidence was all we had that might be reasonable. It isn't however and much ADC communication conflicts with that view.
Indeed. And even the NDE evidence is more complex than simplistic picture described above. It's one thing to give a simple overview when describing something in an introduction, but to build an entire argument around it seems disingenuous.
 
#13
Let's face it, the state has killed vast numbers of totally innocent people in its various wars!

I am against capital punishment for a number of practical reasons:

1) People are sometimes wrongly convicted, and the truth turns up much later. Clearly the truth is also far more likely to come out if the person stays alive.

2) I happened to be in the US at the time when Timothy McVeigh was executed, and the coverage on TV was pretty ghoulish - so I think the death penalty has a bad effect on other people.

3) Some murderers - particularly terrorists - may wish to die in glory. It may be a worse punishment to tell them they will slowly rot in jail.

4) The poorer you are, the more likely you are to be executed. There are lots of people who deliberately cause death and don't face any personal sanctions at all - think of people who authorise the hiding of excess deaths in a report on a new drug.

I don't think a person's belief in an afterlife is terrifically relevant.

David
 
#14
And finally, no one sticks around as a ghost. That's a human belief based on their extremely limited ability to understand the non-physical. Everyone goes to heaven as soon as they die if we are to believe NDErs.
Evidence from reincarnation, mediumship and apparition cases negates your theory. Furthermore, these three lines of evidence are more reliable than NDEs.

Your theory may seem plausible if you read only about certain type of NDEs and ignore all the other evidence.

I believe in the afterlife and I support death penalty.
 
#20
Hanging prevents criminals from committing same crimes again. It is also more effective deterrent than life in prison. Some people are so sadistic and evil that they deserve harsher punishments.

Pedophiles, terrorists, rapists and murderers should be put to death.
Don't think it's a deterrent at all. America has a horrendous per capita murder rate and capital punishment. Canada doesn't have either. Few murders are premeditated - deterrence requires the perpetrator to have time to consider the consequences and weigh them up - very rare imo.

Your reference to terrorists is particularly interesting. Many people start as "terrorists" and later are recognised as freedom fighters. Your view is a common one but simplistic imho.
 
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