Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Aug 7, 2018.
What do you mean by ‘for real’ David ?
Im Facebook friends with him and I communicate with him on occasion on there and through some of the Astral travel pages which he frequents. He’s about as good a guy and genuine as it gets. His stories aren’t really any more incredible and share most of the common features of other notable Astral travelers I’ve been researching ie-Graham Nichols/William Buhlman/Cyrus Kirkpatrick. As far as I’m concerned, the study of this Astral realm, through the genuine and consistent reports of people who appear very credible is by far the best way to gain an understanding of some of the other dimensions. It’s a far more useful study than NDEs or past life regression etc for this sort of info. My opinion. Watch some interviews with him on YouTube. You’ll find him credible.
If you’re on Facebook joint the Afterlife and Metaphysics page.
Whats interesting is the similarities between NDEs and the reports of Astral travelers. I used to read a ton of NDEs and it always threw me for a loop when I would come across accounts where people said that they had a body and that everything was solid. I guess the dogma of my Christian past still has a hold somewhere in my mind. But when I started studying Astral accounts, it’s the same thing. Some dimensions seem almost purely mental, while others are quite physical where you take on a body, and are quite capable of manipulating the form and appearance of that body in many instances. I think Earth is just one example of an endless number of these physical dimensions that we may partake in according to our goals and needs. It seems to me that our current existence is an extraordinarily challenging and limiting one.
I’ll also add that people aren’t coming back from any of these experiences saying that you’re going to some hell if you don’t accept Jesus, but we all already know that.
This is the stuff that advocates of extended consciousness need to get into next. I get that the NDE material has been subjected to very decent discipline scientific questions, and for a lot of folk this is a necessary step before allowing that OOBEs are okay. I think, via Skeptiko, Alex has made this point beyond any reasonable grounds for dispute.
I don't know what science has been done to establish the validity of OOBEs, and I don't really care, to be frank. Maybe that can be explored to some degree because it might be interesting to see how physically based science handles engaging with a metaphysical dimension to our reality.
Who do you reckon should be the first of a series of OOBErs on Skeptiko?
I just found this guy and like him more than most OOBErs:
This looks like good stuff. I am going to download and look later. It strikes me that there seems to be quite a good array of useful sources coming up and maybe somebody could pull it all together as a list (Laird are you around?)(I'll email you).
Maybe we can help Alex get some of these guys on - maybe a panel? I don't know. But I do know this is where we gotta go next.
Here’s a great podcast with Greg Doyle
I totally agree with you. I feel like in this area, if we can consider these men credible, we find a gold mine of information into the nature of consciousness and reality.
I'm connected on Facebook to the guys I mentioned earlier. It would be easy for me to contact them and see if they wish to come on the show.
This has excited me more that anything else has for a long time. Although I have been aware of, and been in contact with other obe’rs for some years. It has reignited my interest.
I doubt that you could convince Jurgen back, but who knows? I have communicated with him for some years, and agree with you about him being a good guy, though I’ve never met him in person. I was disappointed at his reaction (leaving) to the forum’s street wise nature however, but it is as it is.
Thanks, Michael, I got your email.
Others here such as Steve, Wormwood and yourself seem much more informed in this area than I am - maybe it could be a collaboration? One possibility is to create a page on the Psience Quest wiki and collectively edit it.
It'd be great to get a list of the major voices in the out of body experience community collected in one place.
Heres my short list of favorites. The others that I have listened to or read, I don't remember their names.
Tom Campbell (to a lesser degree, he wont openly share his out of body experiences, which makes me wonder. I'm not saying he's a fraud, but I do question his ability in contrast to some of the others with specific regards to astral travel)
I think the problem with OOB experiences is that without having an experience of your own, one just can’t understand or fully get into what they’re about. I was and still am excited by the Greg Doyle video that Reece posted earlier, I convinced my 17 yo daughter to watch it with me. After watching for half an hour or so, I paused it and asked what she thought. “I want to believe him, but I just don’t know” was what she said. And I agreed with her.
She hopes to go to Uni next year to study psychology and I’m a bit torn. On the one hand I know she will go, and probably enjoy the experience. On the other I hope to hell that there are some lecturers and fellow students that are open minded. I just feel very strongly that we should remain open to everything. I get deflated by those people who are so arrogant in their righteousness, why are such people often in such powerful positions? (It’s rhetorical ) In my favour are her interest in astrology, which she has played with for some years (I’m not that interested) and my ‘weird’ interest in some topics that skeptiko forum users will be very familiar with. Although like OOB, there is only so far that you can get with Reincarnation, NDEs and the like. It seems to me that Alex has moved on, he had to. What he/we’ve learned still remains.
Maybe it’s meant to be that way, at least for now. A relatively few ‘lucky’ people like Greg, Tom Campbell, Jurgen and any more have possibly reached a stage where they can develop by being allowed to do the things that others can’t. We maybe all have the potential to do it, but for a multitude of possible reasons, we either are discouraged from doing so, or are afraid/barred/who knows from doing so. Possibly by ourselves, if pre life contracts are to be believed. I am no believer in after life contracts, but I remain open to the possibility.
I’m of the opinion that Tom has the same level of experience as a few others, but has firm ideas about sharing them. He’s old. Old fashioned. He thinks that it ‘takes away’ from the important stuff if we concentrate on the ‘incredible’ experiences. I think I see what he’s getting at. Rather than follow the modern ‘wow, this is amazing’ cream, he probably thinks that the underlying stuff that supports the cream should be learned. The ego loves the cream, but isn’t so keen on working to achieve it.
I think this is true but I also think that he would benefit from allowing some of the cream to be shared. I see him and a few others as the godparents where this topic is concerned. Probably Bob Monroe should be the Godfather?
It's difficult to believe because it seems contrary to everyday experience. But here's the thing, the weirdest thing is that we exist in the first place, and that we are conscious. That's the most bizarre thing imaginable, existence and consciousness are the grand miracles. After you realize how bizarre it is that we are here and conscious in the first place, to me, everything else flows easily if the testimonial evidence is strong enough. Why would it be so strange if there were OTHER realms like ours here? We know this realm exists and is populated with conscious entities. Its not even remotely strange to me to postulate that other realms probably exist as well. And when you listen to all of the OBE's, and you hear the sincerity, they dont get tripped up or get nervous by questions, they are precise and consistent. I think anybody with a good BS detector can see that these guys are genuine. It also lines up with the NDE evidence. Im also of the opinion that it lines up with the Re-incarnation evidence, and the medium evidence as well. All these point to the same idea..that there are other realms, some are physical, some are more ethereal or "Heaven-like." And we can visit these other realms, as we will when we die, or some of us may visit them now. And, it appears that entities from these other realms can, at a minimum, contact us here and (IMO) are also visiting our reality from time to time, as some of the members of our reality visit THEIRS through astral travel from time to time. To me, all of these topics which Ive spent a great studying all sort of paint the aforementioned picture. They all sort of point in the same direction. I don't think the "dreaming" argument works at all. It would be strange if the only dream that everybody in the world is confusing for something real is Astral travel dreaming and alien abduction. To me, you either have to maintain that these guys are telling the truth,or they are lying. There's no confusing these experiences with dreams. That's a ridiculous assertion drawn up by people who don't want to hurt other peoples feelings by saying that they are lying. Normal and healthy people don't confuse dreams with reality. That just doesn't happen. And when you get on some of these Facebook pages where groups of people discuss these things, you begin to understand how common this is. You see people from all walks of life chiming in with their experiences. Ive had conversations with old ladies about their astral experiences on Facebook. What I can sympathize with, from a skeptic perspective, is that it seems contrary to everyday experience, and there is no proof. That I can sympathize with. So it really comes down to belief and how you see reality, what you think reality is.
I’m adding this line after finishing the post. It appears a bit confrontational at first, but it’s not meant to be. Honest.
Have you had such an experience? If not, I don’t see how you can say that much about them. It all comes down to experience. I’m with you on nearly everything you say. By with you I mean I feel content with what you’ve written.
I’m in little doubt that what these people are describing is as true as it can be...however these days I don’t even totally believe in my own experience!
Are they telling the truth? Yes. As they perceive it. I must allow the possibility that although they totally believe that they’re telling ‘the truth’. They might be somehow directed to tell what they only think they’ve experienced. I see that as a possibility.
When you are inclined to be a fan of Idealism, as I am, then I think anything is possible. So other realms, planets, universes, aliens ...anything is more than possible.
Years ago I posted somewhere on this forum that I was putting my (big picture) money on Tom Campbell. Although I have my skeptical doubts about some things he says and does, my views haven’t changed on the basic premise. I’d love to meet him one to one with no pressure of time. Say on a long haul flight.
I feel uneasy about his many fans.
Absolutely. We cant know for sure and we cant neatly map out these other realms with any precision, and details are difficult to mull over. But I think we can paint a general picture and appreciate the idea that there are other realms which we can, as conscious agents, participate in. If we can ascertain that this SEEMS to be whats going on, in contrast, I find the details and bells and whistles less important. Still highly interesting though, particularly when they tend to agree with each other on certain points. Its the same way we learn about history which we werent around to witness (granted its a little different). I also agree with you on Campbell. I mean, I like Tom Campbell, but something seems a bit off to me about him and his following. For somebody who preaches skepticism and ONLY GOING ON the facts as much as he does, he tends to present a lot of things as facts which are really his opinions, namely regarding his MBT work.
I am curious to know whether anyone here has practiced/attempted to go OOB and has actually experienced it after a number of failures? Maybe from doing The Monroe Institute's Journey program? Or via home study using their hemi-sync technology?
I took a Module 1 class with IAC (referenced above) and was able to make my body vibrate with their technique, but wasn't able to get fully OOB. Wonder if anyone has tried, failed, and then finally achieved this state via intentional technique?
Separate names with a comma.