Did Jesus Exist? Joseph Atwill Vs. Steven Crowder |386|

#81
I am curious to know whether anyone here has practiced/attempted to go OOB and has actually experienced it after a number of failures? Maybe from doing The Monroe Institute's Journey program? Or via home study using their hemi-sync technology?

I took a Module 1 class with IAC (referenced above) and was able to make my body vibrate with their technique, but wasn't able to get fully OOB. Wonder if anyone has tried, failed, and then finally achieved this state via intentional technique?
I'm just getting started with trying. Started maybe a couple months ago and havent made any progress yet. My hope is to use my modest ability to lucid dream and try to gain access that way. Ive been playing with some techniques but haven't gotten any results or anything which seems to resemble progress. I think I need a good book.
 
#82
I am curious to know whether anyone here has practiced/attempted to go OOB and has actually experienced it after a number of failures? Maybe from doing The Monroe Institute's Journey program? Or via home study using their hemi-sync technology?

I took a Module 1 class with IAC (referenced above) and was able to make my body vibrate with their technique, but wasn't able to get fully OOB. Wonder if anyone has tried, failed, and then finally achieved this state via intentional technique?
I've failed more times than I can count, had a couple accidental successes and then have had several intentional ones. Nothing verifiable but all the signposts were there. I've used Robert Bruce's Astral projection in 90 days book.
 
#83
After watching for half an hour or so, I paused it and asked what she thought. “I want to believe him, but I just don’t know” was what she said. And I agreed with her.
It is hard to allow belief or acceptance on a matter that can seem so radical compared to what we are used to. And some of the stuff that is proposed is really confronting, because it goes against what we are conditioned to think.

I do not think you have to believe on the basis of limited exposure, and to try to do is to put unreasonable pressure on yourself. That can lead to the safe option being to just walk away.

In fact for anything that is new we have to become accustomed to it, going beyond the reflex to react and reject. In this case astral travel is hardly new, but people openly talking about it is. They all have individual experiences, and it is only when we have a perspective on them can we make a decision about what is possibly valid. One person's report of a trip to Paris will fuse general truths with personal angles. After hearing ten reports we get a better idea of the general truths.

When I listened to Monroe's 'Far Journeys' as an audiobook I was routinely confronted, fearing it was a fantasy. And again in 'Ultimate Journey' I had to settle my anxiety and just let myself flow with the narrative. We have to dare to expose ourselves to unexpected knowledge if we want to know more than our cultural thought bubble allows us to know.

The only time I was out of my body and conscious of being so I got as far as the kitchen sink, at which I stood stupidly as I watched my hand repeatedly pass through a glass and then do the same thing with the tap when I decided I need a drink bad enough to forgo the glass. Then I thought. "Shit! I am out of my body!" At which point I woke violently in my bed, shocked and intrigued. That modest taste was enough to alter my way of thinking.

There is nothing like direct experience, it is true. But allowing yourself to hear and see what others have to say, 'as if it is true', but without committing yourself to believing it is true, can be transformative. I guess its a bit like going to a movie, suspending disbelief, getting totally immersed, and then afterwards knowing it was just a movie - and yet still moved or influenced.

I mention this because I am surprised by the number of people who feel uncomfortable treating an idea or proposition as if they have to marry it from go, rather than taking a 'suck it and see' approach. You don't have to 'believe' an astral traveller in terms of his content. You may have to allow that astral travelling is real and this guy did it. You can review your information later and form an opinion based on knowledge of the whole story and what you think of it.

I think we need to trust our capacity for critical discernment after we have listened to the whole story, and its okay to decide you have no bloody idea whether the guy is talking complete bollocks or not. Reserve judgement. Keep inquiring.

Or you can simply say, "I am going to research this subject and I will let you know what I think in a couple of months."

Maybe its an academic bias, but researching astral travel is just the same as buying car. You may not doubt cars are real, and you believe you want one - but you are not going to believe what the first salesman tells you. But, to be honest, astral travel can be like being offered a hovercar, and that can be a freak out. Its still a car, and you still want one. But this? Same deal. Regular car or hovercar, research it.
 
#84
The only time I was out of my body and conscious of being so I got as far as the kitchen sink, at which I stood stupidly as I watched my hand repeatedly pass through a glass and then do the same thing with the tap when I decided I need a drink bad enough to forgo the glass. Then I thought. "Shit! I am out of my body!" At which point I woke violently in my bed, shocked and intrigued. That modest taste was enough to alter my way of thinking.

There is nothing like direct experience, it is true. But allowing yourself to hear and see what others have to say, 'as if it is true', but without committing yourself to believing it is true, can be transformative. I guess its a bit like going to a movie, suspending disbelief, getting totally immersed, and then afterwards knowing it was just a movie - and yet still moved or influenced.
How did you do it? Was it a conscious effort or did you suddenly find yourself OOB?

Yeah.

It’s tricky expressing my ideas about this.

It’s not as if it’s new to me. I’ve watched possibly hundreds of videos by the people that make them, such as Tom, Jurgen, Graham Nichols and many more, including some IAC people, basically whenever I find an OOB video I’ll watch it. I’ve also read plenty books by Robert Monroe and many more.

I’ve tried to do it. Once I got as far as hearing two distinct voices shouting in a house that was empty. This immediately broke the spell, and the fear woke me up from my semi conscious state, I have never tried again.

If I was meant to do it, I don’t think I would have scared myself. That’s my thinking anyway. Why do some people have these experiences while others don’t? Should I try again? I’ve written too, about my attempt to have a reading from a well known medium, after seeing him perform at a church. No joy. He said that he thought he had four clients that day, when he had five bookings, he said that I must have been the odd one out, because I couldn’t relate to anything he said, and he aborted the session. My wife was there, some of what he said she recognised as being for her! :).

I have had occasional experiences that were very unusual, that led me to researching stuff. I could tell that they were different, although they didn’t slap my face and tell me to ‘listen up’, they were far enough from the ordinary to have me behave unusually, for some years. I describe them as ‘angels’ helping me after my stroke.
 
#85
I'm just getting started with trying. Started maybe a couple months ago and havent made any progress yet. My hope is to use my modest ability to lucid dream and try to gain access that way. Ive been playing with some techniques but haven't gotten any results or anything which seems to resemble progress. I think I need a good book.
I use William Buhlman's lucid dream technique:
http://www.astralinfo.org/astral-projection-methods/

I have had over 200 lucid dreams and once I have managed to induce vibrational state by using this technique. The vibrations were very intense and I was startled by them. I could probably have exited my body if I had remained calm. It is easy for me to induce lucid dreams, but I have found that it is very hard to convert lucid dream into OBE. I have also tried Dream Spinning technique by Stephen LaBerge: http://www.lucidity.com/NL7.34.RU.SpinFlowRub.html It works well, but it's not useful for OBE training. A while ago I read this book by Robert Waggoner: https://www.amazon.com/Lucid-Dreami...r=1-1&keywords=lucid+dreaming+robert+waggoner I tried one of his techniques for remembering past lives (the book doesn't deal with that topic, it was my own idea to use it for remembering past lives.). Suddenly the dream scenery changed and I saw an interesting image from above. I will probably try that again in September when I have more time to practice.

I have had one spontaneous OBE, that proved to me that it is definitely real and very different from lucid dreaming. Nevertheless, I'm interested in lucid dreaming, because for me it's much easier than other techniques. I have also had many precognitive/telepathic dreams by using Buhlman's lucid dreaming technique.
 
#86
hi Kevin... thx for the excellent post... sorry for the delay in responding.

Joseph Atwill argues that the New Testament gospels were written as wartime propaganda by Roman scholars
connected to the Roman imperial court of the Flavian emperors: Vespasian, Titus and Domitian. However, the
fact that there were a multitude of gospels in existence which didn't become part of New Testament canon, such
as the earliest gospel, the Gospel of Thomas, completely destroys Atwill's theory.
- maybe, maybe not... my point is that Mark clearly had access to Josephus and wrote fake prophesies... do you agree?

So it can safely be said that no other person has had such an impact upon the world than the "Jesus" who created
the teachings of this "Jesus".
ok, I guess.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter who created these teachings.
I think it matters to most Christians.
 
#88
I get the fascination for the NDE stuff, but it is still only trauma induced OOBEs - so OOBEs are the benchmark.
- not sure we know that.

And if you accept OOBEs you have to accept dead dudes talking back. This is where I want Skeptiko to go next (Alex, if you are reading, get an OOBE guy on soon).
see David's post above :)


I have been out of my body. It is real, and it is the very shore of an extraordinary adventure. Its where our gods, demons and many ET operate (maybe all - I don't know). Its the realer side of reality as we know it.
- ok, but I'm not sure we have this kind of map of the territory yet.
 
#89
This looks like good stuff. I am going to download and look later. It strikes me that there seems to be quite a good array of useful sources coming up and maybe somebody could pull it all together as a list (Laird are you around?)(I'll email you).

Maybe we can help Alex get some of these guys on - maybe a panel? I don't know. But I do know this is where we gotta go next.
I'm going... but taking a slightly diff path... open to redirect.
 
#90
How did you do it? Was it a conscious effort or did you suddenly find yourself OOB?
I woke up with a strong desire to have a drink of water, got out of bed and walked to the kitchen. On the way I glanced out a window and saw the moon shining through a mulberry tree. It was such a beautiful sight I wished I had a camera that could capture the image. It was only when I was in the kitchen I came to understand I was OOB. When I snapped awake in bed I got up and rushed to the window. Same scene, exactly so. Couldn't see that from the bed and couldn't see the kitchen. OOBE only valid explanation.
 
#92
I suppose its possible. I'd much rather have Jesus and the Gospels say good things about me though, by far. It seems a much safer and surer bet. But I wasn't around then to fully understand the society and their politics so I dont know. But I would definitely explain how paying taxes is a "citizens duty." That idea coming from Jesus would help line your pockets.
You can download audio versions of the Gospels very cheap or free. I did and listening to what my brain used to switch off when I tried reading was a revelation (with little 'r'). I recommend it because it is easier today attention, or force yourself to, when its audio. My conclusion was that the Gospels were essentially incomprehensible, apart from the odd spots. I quit bothering to make sense of them. Others may be more tolerant and adventurous. My point is essentially that you can listen, rather than read.
 
#93
To be fair, I just remembered, that although the tax collectors were portrayed poorly throughout the Bible, there was that moment where Jesus paid taxes and stated something like, “render therefore what belongs to Caesar to Caesar and what belongs to God to God.”
 
#94
Can't suggest a redirect until we know what that different path is. So long as it is interesting.
I think the in-yr-face reality of ET tech (one advantage of the psyop disclosure is that we can now use this as a common ground starting point) has caused me to step back and reexamine extended consciousness tech. I think Sergio Canavero's work stirs similar musings:

Two surgeons based in China say a head transplant is “imminent.” We ...

anyone up for getting any of these folks on the show?
 
#95
I think the in-yr-face reality of ET tech (one advantage of the psyop disclosure is that we can now use this as a common ground starting point) has caused me to step back and reexamine extended consciousness tech. I think Sergio Canavero's work stirs similar musings:

Two surgeons based in China say a head transplant is “imminent.” We ...

anyone up for getting any of these folks on the show?
I’ll be absolutely stunned if that works.

With regards to your question, which people were you talking about? The Astral travelers? Or people involved with the transplant? Sergio Canavero?
 
#98
It'd be great to get a list of the major voices in the out of body experience community collected in one place.
Heres my short list of favorites. The others that I have listened to or read, I don't remember their names.

Bob Monroe
Graham Nichols
Jurgen Ziewe
Cyrus Kirkpatrick
Greg Doyle
Tom Campbell (to a lesser degree, he wont openly share his out of body experiences, which makes me wonder. I'm not saying he's a fraud, but I do question his ability in contrast to some of the others with specific regards to astral travel)
OK... so, based on your responses, I've gone ahead and seeded the page, OOBE Resources on the Psience Quest wiki (which can be for the combined use of the Skeptiko / Psience Quest community). If anybody's interested in defining the purpose of the page, and/or contributing to or maintaining the page, please feel free to do that! You can log in to edit the wiki with your Psience Quest forum credentials, and if you don't have an account there, you can freely create one.

If I've erred in taking the initiative, and folks would prefer some other means of collaborative editing than the Psience Quest wiki, then please just say so - other alternatives include Google Docs or a (public/private) thread on this forum.
 
#99
OK... so, based on your responses, I've gone ahead and seeded the page, OOBE Resources on the Psience Quest wiki (which can be for the combined use of the Skeptiko / Psience Quest community). If anybody's interested in defining the purpose of the page, and/or contributing to or maintaining the page, please feel free to do that! You can log in to edit the wiki with your Psience Quest forum credentials, and if you don't have an account there, you can freely create one.

If I've erred in taking the initiative, and folks would prefer some other means of collaborative editing than the Psience Quest wiki, then please just say so - other alternatives include Google Docs or a (public/private) thread on this forum.
Cool, I’ll add some stuff later.
 
OK... so, based on your responses, I've gone ahead and seeded the page, OOBE Resources on the Psience Quest wiki (which can be for the combined use of the Skeptiko / Psience Quest community). If anybody's interested in defining the purpose of the page, and/or contributing to or maintaining the page, please feel free to do that! You can log in to edit the wiki with your Psience Quest forum credentials, and if you don't have an account there, you can freely create one.

If I've erred in taking the initiative, and folks would prefer some other means of collaborative editing than the Psience Quest wiki, then please just say so - other alternatives include Google Docs or a (public/private) thread on this forum.
Hi Laird

I am into this. Just need to get to the weekend and set aside some time.
 
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