Does the psychic reality extend to animals

#1
Over at PsienceQuest, Vortex has interviewd Titus Rivas, who is very interested in animal psychic links, and the question of whether animals have souls.

http://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-107-page-2.html

I think this is an interesting question, and it is worth remembering that Rupert Sheldrake exposed the fact that some dogs definitely have a psychic link with their owners, so that they can detect that they are starting to return home while they are miles away.

He also links to a book that reports a huge number of assorted psychic interactions with pets.

http://compassioncircle.com/product/animals-and-the-afterlife/

I think you have to skip through sections of the book because the number of reports is overwhelming. Some seem to be from people who are initially sceptical, which is helpful.

As you will see, I tried to question Titus about the problem (as I see it) that it isn't at all clear how far you go down the animal kingdom - does a cat flea have a soul - indeed does a single cell have a soul?

My own view is that animal consciousness is essentially as amazing as ours is, so I agree with him, but I find the thought of nematode worms, each with a place in the afterlife rather perplexing!

David
 
#2
I have no more knowledge than you except to say that I have read in various spiritualist books that it depends on what they call the 'love link'.
In other words if a loving relationship is formed with companion animals then they will still be linked with that person in the afterlife.
But 'wild' creatures I've heard have some kind of group soul, whatever that is!
 
#3
I have no more knowledge than you except to say that I have read in various spiritualist books that it depends on what they call the 'love link'.
In other words if a loving relationship is formed with companion animals then they will still be linked with that person in the afterlife.
But 'wild' creatures I've heard have some kind of group soul, whatever that is!
Well yes, but what about love links between two animals?

I suspect the Christian idea that humans and animals are fundamentally different - I suspect we are not, and maybe we can reincarnate as animals and vice versa!

David
 
#4
I tend to think that humans and animals have very similar conscious experiences.

However the phenomenon of blindsight (when people who are blind sometimes seem to be unconsciously aware of what they see) implies that a more primitive brain in an animal might seem to be aware but not be conscious in the same way humans are.

Consider when a person is sleep walking or when you are driving and you suddenly realize you have passed landmarks you don't remember passing ... are animals like that all the time?

I don't think so, but I can understand why someone might believe it.
 
#5
Consider when a person is sleep walking or when you are driving and you suddenly realize you have passed landmarks you don't remember passing ... are animals like that all the time?
Well it is impossible to do certain things (that we share with animals) that way - for example mating!

David
 
#6
Over at PsienceQuest, Vortex has interviewd Titus Rivas, who is very interested in animal psychic links, and the question of whether animals have souls.

http://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-107-page-2.html

I think this is an interesting question, and it is worth remembering that Rupert Sheldrake exposed the fact that some dogs definitely have a psychic link with their owners, so that they can detect that they are starting to return home while they are miles away.

He also links to a book that reports a huge number of assorted psychic interactions with pets.

http://compassioncircle.com/product/animals-and-the-afterlife/
http://compassioncircle.com/product/animals-and-the-afterlife/
I think you have to skip through sections of the book because the number of reports is overwhelming. Some seem to be from people who are initially sceptical, which is helpful.

As you will see, I tried to question Titus about the problem (as I see it) that it isn't at all clear how far you go down the animal kingdom - does a cat flea have a soul - indeed does a single cell have a soul?

My own view is that animal consciousness is essentially as amazing as ours is, so I agree with him, but I find the thought of nematode worms, each with a place in the afterlife rather perplexing!

David
I think animals - especially those with a "love link" like pack animals or pets - are generally more psychic than we are. I believe we traded some of our natural psychic ability for language and abstraction. We have to practice meditation or be on the verge of losing consciousness or jump through all kinds of hoops just to quiet down the parts of our mind that interfere with psychic sense. Animals don't have to do all that. They are perpetually in the moment and open.

I think everything has an "afterlife" but from the perspective of being in the afterlife it is only as complex as the soul is and it is not necessarily an afterlife as in the continuation of a single timeline, but more like an expansion to a higher dimensional perspective... the inhale prior to the next exhale which is once again a contraction back into some form of lower dimensional perspective.
 
#7
I think animals - especially those with a "love link" like pack animals or pets - are generally more psychic than we are. I believe we traded some of our natural psychic ability for language and abstraction. We have to practice meditation or be on the verge of losing consciousness or jump through all kinds of hoops just to quiet down the parts of our mind that interfere with psychic sense. Animals don't have to do all that. They are perpetually in the moment and open.
Yes - for example RS didn't need to average a couple of thousand dog returning home events to get a 95% confidence - the result stood out a mile until Wiseman found a way to screw it up!
I think everything has an "afterlife" but from the perspective of being in the afterlife it is only as complex as the soul is and it is not necessarily an afterlife as in the continuation of a single timeline, but more like an expansion to a higher dimensional perspective... the inhale prior to the next exhale which is once again a contraction back into some form of lower dimensional perspective.
Of course, it could be that all 'souls' are roughly equally complex, but that the brain is what it is different. What, for example, is the soul of a brain damaged human like?

David
 
#9
I have a very close bond with my cat Aubrey and can "call" him in my head and he will come right away. It works much better than actually calling him out loud... my theory is that when I summon him telepathically he thinks it's his idea! :D
Wow - does that mean you can sit indoors and call him telepathically while he is outside?

David
 
#11
No, just from one part of the apartment to another. My cats are indoor cats (and I live in a Brooklyn walk-up). Sorry if that's less impressive than you were imagining!
Well if it is done silently, it is still fairly impressive. I don't seem to have a psychic mind, but I tried mentally asking my cat to get off my knee when I had to get up - he just carried on purring!

Can you call all your cats, or is just one of them psychic?

David
 
#12
Well if it is done silently, it is still fairly impressive. I don't seem to have a psychic mind, but I tried mentally asking my cat to get off my knee when I had to get up - he just carried on purring!

Can you call all your cats, or is just one of them psychic?

David
I have two cats and it doesn't work with Lucinda.
 
#13
Of course, it could be that all 'souls' are roughly equally complex, but that the brain is what it is different. What, for example, is the soul of a brain damaged human like?
It could be, but I don't think it is likely that souls are all equal. It seems to me like there would be a spectrum of complexity as there is in just about everything else.

My own definition of the soul is the 5-dimensional shape formed by the timeline of one's life and the emotional meaningful connections it has made. The strength of emotional meaningful connections of a nematode is probably less than that of a person. If emotional power is also a spectrum that relies on degree of complexity of the story and of the capabilities of the individual, then we could extrapolate that all the way down to the particular level and say that particles experience "pleasure" or "pain" which is what Stuart Hammeroff has suggested; however, I don't know what those words even mean at that level of simplicity except that they are metaphorical abstract extrapolations of something that we understand at our level of complexity... but I suppose we do that with everything that we can't directly experience, so why not?

The complexity of the soul of a brain damaged human might depend on how much of one's life was spent brain damaged. I don't think the soul suddenly becomes less complex if at the end of life, brain damage occurs because I think of the soul as an aggregation of all life experience.

And of course I'm only considering the present life. We could consider other lives to be a part of the soul's "shape". It all depends on how much similarity we require to meet our arbitrary definition of a singular identity. We can lower the threshold of similarity further and say all humans share a common soul like the leaves of a tree share a common trunk, or go even further and say that all inhabitants of earth share a soul. But as the boundaries around identity become more expansive, the identity becomes less useful or meaningful unless the frame of the accompanying narrative also expands. In other words, if I want to explore the meaning of my own present life, it is less useful to identify with the universe.
 
#14
I have two cats and it doesn't work with Lucinda.
Well Sheldrake claims that about one in three cats are psychic - so that might make sense.

I am wondering if it is possible to collect some more evidence in this situation. For example, sit down and toss a coin. Only send your silent signal to Aubrey if it comes up heads. Make a note if Aubrey comes to you in, say the next 5 mins. After that, you might want to call him anyway, so that he gets his cuddle regardless. If you did that regularly, and kept notes, the evidence would build up quickly, and it would be interesting to post here.

You might even want to go further. Small surveillance cameras are so cheap now, you could set one up to view the place where Aubrey usually sleeps, and then call him while you are away from home - either viewing the effect over the internet, or tracking the time carefully to check later. If that works, and Aubrey reacts visibly to your call, I think you should tell us, but also contact Rupert Sheldrake!

David
 
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#17
Animals are certainly conscious, so their consciousness presumably survives as human consciousness does. When I'm absorbed in something for a long period I'll sometimes think "I really should take the dog a walk" while continuing the task, at which point she'll come up to me and stretch, her sign for wanting to go outside. This is so commonplace as to be unremarkable.

Sceptics would claim I'm giving off an unconscious cue, but that isn't the case as it'll sometimes be something as subtle as reading the word dog, or even a reference to a house that reminds me of one where I once knew a dog. As her reaction is simultaneous with my thought process, there must be some kind of conscious transference. However I feel dogs live in dog consciousness and humans inhabit human consciousness, and while the two may cross I don't believe they are the same except when beneficial to one or both parties.
 
#18
Animals are certainly conscious, so their consciousness presumably survives as human consciousness does. When I'm absorbed in something for a long period I'll sometimes think "I really should take the dog a walk" while continuing the task, at which point she'll come up to me and stretch, her sign for wanting to go outside. This is so commonplace as to be unremarkable.

Sceptics would claim I'm giving off an unconscious cue, but that isn't the case as it'll sometimes be something as subtle as reading the word dog, or even a reference to a house that reminds me of one where I once knew a dog. As her reaction is simultaneous with my thought process, there must be some kind of conscious transference. However I feel dogs live in dog consciousness and humans inhabit human consciousness, and while the two may cross I don't believe they are the same except when beneficial to one or both parties.
Assuming that communication is roughly the same as the link that Sheldrake measured, he estimated that about 50% of dogs have this communication. If you have had other dogs, I wonder if that tallies with your experience?

As I said to Laura, if you installed a small video camera, you might be able to collect some remarkable evidence.

About whether animal spirits are the same as ours, I rather keep an open mind. i mean we hear a lot about how the mind is constrained and limited by the brain. That might mean that the real difference is in the nature of the brain, and not in the spirit itself.

David
 
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