Dr. Chris White Optimistic About Science Spirituality Crossover |402|

I do not disagree, but for me personally, studying these reported experiences of others in these realms has helped my understanding of our current realm, at least I BELIEVE that it has. At least in a metaphysical sense.

What it tells me is that our current realm is NOT “base reality.” And that these other realms are not these spooky “spiritual realms.” They are just other places, like our current place, where conscious beings live. They are no more or less “spiritual” than our current Universe. I now look at what most people call “spiritual realms” as just other places as I do France, or Japan etc. The “ghosts” who live in these places aren’t ghosts, they’re just conscious beings like me living elsewhere. And some of these places are completely as physical as our Universe (apparently based on a plethora of credible reports).

It’s quite a shift from the predominant Western Christian influenced notion of the “spirit world” as just a singular ethereal realm where God lives. And this is the sort of impression or base assumption that many/most hold in the Western world whether they are Christian or not.

We need to shift away from seeing these other conscious beings as less real and ghostly, and rather begin seeing them as ALIVE conscious beings, the opposite of dead. And also to cease imagining our Universe as “the material world” and everything else as a fundamentally different “spiritual realm.” There are likely countless numbers of dimensions (if that’s what you want to call them) where beings are operating and working on their spiritual growth, which (to me) means the same things as, “working on the quality of their conscious experience.”
I am curious about your idea of other realms (or whatever you want to call them). Would you say that your perspective is a kind of materialist view of other realms?
 
I think PK is another instance that tends to prove idealism (grass turning purple from our discussion above). I have seen two undeniable PK events in my life. One from a living agent and one from a deceased agent (I know I'm making assumptions about the source). I practice skepticism whenever it comes to the paranormal and I am hardest on myself because I like to know what's going on and not be the fool. But I am positive that both incidents are exactly what I saw them to be.

In instance one there was a door that was locked. I know because I had just tried to open it. Also, it was after hours and the door always locked after hours. I guy I knew, who was an Apache and a member of a "medicine clan" (Bear clan/White Mountain Apaches) waived his hand at the door from ten feet away and the door just opened - it was one of those heavy commercial steel framed doors. There was no one inside to have opened the door because I stepped in and looked. My friend took credit for opening the door with his hand wave and was laughing about it. I was stunned by this.

Incident two was a few months after my father died and all sorts of banging and knocks were happening in my house that never happened before or after, During a séance with a top notch medium, my father's spirit came through loud and clear with much verifiable intimate detail. I had given the medium a false name and registered using a one time gmail account that I set up at the public library, again with totally false name. I only paid the medium after the séance. So no credit card info or anything like that. My father took credit for the PK activity in my house (said he needed to get my attention as he had things to tell me - which he did at the séance - I didn't bring it up at the séance...in fact I pretty much just sat there while the medium, who had assumed my father's idiosyncratic mannerisms fired off detail after detail...the spirit brought up the weird goings on and was specific about some objects that had moved around and he was detailed; example - specifically stating that he had taken my wife's "pink wallet" which had, indeed gone missing. How could a cold reader or whatever know about a pink wallet?). The weirdest of those events was a week or two after the séance I joked about seeing how good my father could be at this poltergeist stuff. I had found a hair barrette that had belonged to my daughter and that she had left in my house went she deployed in the Navy. I found it in an odd place where I was sure it hadn't been before. I told my father (speaking to the air) to do something with it. I set it on the counter in the kitchen and then my wife and I went for a walk. I know it was on the counter when we left because my wife went out first and I closed and locked the door, looking back at the barrette as I closed the door. Well 15 minutes into our walk my wife got a weird look on her face and reached into her coat pocket...yep. It was the barrette. When we got home I opened the door first and looked immediately at the counter where I know I had left the barrette. Of course, it was gone.

Then there are all the OBEs I used to experience and some of the veridical information I brought back. Again, ruling out coincidence, subconscious clues, etc. Some of what I experienced defies what science tells us about the nature of time and space.

These incidents cannot be ignored for rules about how things work dictated by people who are too afraid to face the evidence that the little world they've assembled is a sham in terms of The Way - and ONLY WAY -Things Are. Many sane normal people have experiences similar to mine. It's going on all of the time.

*So grass does turn purple*. You obviously don't have to believe my anecdotes. But they are a couple more clues as to where I'm coming from in all of this. And I have better things to do than to hang around on the internet lying to people.
Yes Eric there are very strange things going on all the time, most of them are so small and everyday and we take in (in our conscious state)
so little that we just dont notice. My experiences have led me to start studying Hypnosis to try and understand as a layman how we operate,
something like the hidden observer state in hypnosis needs to be used to get to the bottom of this
 
Operate

I'm sure glad I don't live in brother panics world. I'd love to get him on skeptiko if anyone wants to reach out...
Don't know if it's true or not, but it's refreshing for me to hear spirits don't have more power than humans. If they did it Could make people feel powerless in some aspects? I gravitate towards these bitter occultists like Passio and panic lol
 
I do not disagree, but for me personally, studying these reported experiences of others in these realms has helped my understanding of our current realm, at least I BELIEVE that it has. At least in a metaphysical sense.

What it tells me is that our current realm is NOT “base reality.” And that these other realms are not these spooky “spiritual realms.” They are just other places, like our current place, where conscious beings live. They are no more or less “spiritual” than our current Universe. I now look at what most people call “spiritual realms” as just other places as I do France, or Japan etc. The “ghosts” who live in these places aren’t ghosts, they’re just conscious beings like me living elsewhere. And some of these places are completely as physical as our Universe (apparently based on a plethora of credible reports).

It’s quite a shift from the predominant Western Christian influenced notion of the “spirit world” as just a singular ethereal realm where God lives. And this is the sort of impression or base assumption that many/most hold in the Western world whether they are Christian or not.

We need to shift away from seeing these other conscious beings as less real and ghostly, and rather begin seeing them as ALIVE conscious beings, the opposite of dead. And also to cease imagining our Universe as “the material world” and everything else as a fundamentally different “spiritual realm.” There are likely countless numbers of dimensions (if that’s what you want to call them) where beings are operating and working on their spiritual growth, which (to me) means the same things as, “working on the quality of their conscious experience.”
Wormwood,
Ah! You and I are pretty much coming from the same place.

It was difficult once upon a time to get the powers that be to accept that the sun did not revolve around the earth. That same struggle is where most are at with regards to all these things we discuss. They can't accept that this material world most of us are used to is NOT a base reality or the main thing. Blaise (on this thread) seems to also be coming from the place.

This is fantastic! I thought I was largely alone in my thinking.

I think the influence of Abrahamic religions is so deep in our thinking that it colors all we perceive - even atheists - but we don't see it.
 
Wormwood,
Ah! You and I are pretty much coming from the same place.

It was difficult once upon a time to get the powers that be to accept that the sun did not revolve around the earth. That same struggle is where most are at with regards to all these things we discuss. They can't accept that this material world most of us are used to is NOT a base reality or the main thing. Blaise (on this thread) seems to also be coming from the place.

This is fantastic! I thought I was largely alone in my thinking.

I think the influence of Abrahamic religions is so deep in our thinking that it colors all we perceive - even atheists - but we don't see it.
Abrahamic religion is the biggest spell of all time. It's slowly cracking though very very slowly imo. "paganism" is on the rise, but I'm afraid most of humanity does not have the emotional intelligence to understand it in a way that intellect won't interfere and dominate
 
A question for all of you. Do we NEED mainstream academia to come over to our “side” and drop their materialistic doctorines? Can we progress without them? Progress in what ways?What would we gain if they “joined us”? What would/could happen?
I think there are a lot mainstream academics who are personally interested in spirituality and who have spiritual beliefs, including research scientists. I think, too, that even many folks who prefer a materialistic outlook are interested in spirituality, but happen to be fairly committed to materialism because it's a highly effective worldview. Of course, there are also people who are aggressively opposed to any notions of spirituality. I would say that latter camp is the group that we can progress without.
 
I'm open to the idea of creation and evolution. Why does it usually have to be one stance or another
I think the point is that obviously if you have two types of zebra (say), and they are the same except that one type can run away faster, then the lions will take the first type, and the second type will flourish better. That is natural selection, but it hasn't actually created something new, it has just selected between alternatives.

The mistake (IMHO) that Darwinists make, is to assume that the same sort of selection can operate at the level of individual mutations that change the genotype in a useful way. There is no way the lions will notice if a zebra has just part of the genetic change needed to run faster!

A few useful genetic changes require just one mutation - so they can evolve by natural selection, but most require (say) 500 changes! There is a new book coming out next week about this very thing:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Darwin-Dev...0681243&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=behe+devolution

David
 
can't really see that a person's vulnerability to predation is linked to whether their heart is pure or not. I mean, I guess those of weak intellect are somewhat more susceptible to predation, but that doesn't mean that those of weak intellect are morally inferior.
Hi David

Vulnerability to predation is not an intellectual matter. Perfectly rational people with advanced education are persuaded to believe total twaddle on a routine basis. The illusion is that we can con 'dumb' people easier than 'smart' people, but that dumbness is more psychological than intellectual. For example psychopaths are able to advance in organisations by persuading smart people that they have the goods.

By using the term 'hearts are pure' I mean to denote a state of inner authenticity. It is not exactly a moral evaluation so much as an observation of the inner state. Self-delusion and the absence of emotional intelligence create the ideal play ground for predators. Reliance on rational evaluations and the ignoring of intuitions is common.

It is well known that spiritual inspiration can come to people who are 'innocent of mind' because they lack the intellectual pretentious and conceits to make stupid 'rational' decisions about things. People who seem to be intellectually weak can, nevertheless, intuitively alert. So I am saying that 'purity of heart' is not linked to other attributes - and stands alone as a protective capacity.
 
Don't know if it's true or not, but it's refreshing for me to hear spirits don't have more power than humans. If they did it Could make people feel powerless in some aspects? I gravitate towards these bitter occultists like Passio and panic lol
I am not so sure this is the case. It is certainly true that lower level spirits, like those who come through garden variety mediums, are just dead folk with nothing special added. But I can assure you, from direct experience, that beyond that there are those who can and do exert prowess that is impressive.

But like material reality there is a sufficient degree of order that generally stops the really nasty ones from being overly influential. The good ones are governed by an ethic that does not favour excessive intervention. However, there are also the wildly disruptive operating to a higher wisdom.

We should feel no more or less powerless than we do in our world - if we live in a well governed community. For then most part our combined physical/metaphysical reality is well-governed. Catastrophic intrusions are not impossible - just rare.
 
I think there are a lot mainstream academics who are personally interested in spirituality and who have spiritual beliefs, including research scientists. I think, too, that even many folks who prefer a materialistic outlook are interested in spirituality, but happen to be fairly committed to materialism because it's a highly effective worldview. Of course, there are also people who are aggressively opposed to any notions of spirituality. I would say that latter camp is the group that we can progress without.
Totally agree. I can't immediately recall the title of the book I read American academia, but it does seem that materialists are a significant minority. Many with spiritual, beliefs go underground if the academic powerbrokers are nasty materialists.

I take the view that materialism permits certain amoral and immoral POVs that favour profit making - and so long as there is a nexus between academia and commercial interests there is always going to be pressure on academia to bend toward materialism. That is not to say that all materialists are immoral or amoral, but there is a lot of self-justifying bullshit lathered around to obscure more critical moral considerations. Studies in science do not include courses in moral philosophy - and in any case contemporary philosophy can be perverted to defend anything. We do, after all, have the utterly absurd idea that we can have a materialist philosopher. These creatures are no more than spin doctors engaged in a kind of theology - lets call it an atheology. Its not philosophy - just rationalisation and spin doctoring.

I have Masters and Master Honours science degrees, and I am overtly and relentlessly metaphysical. I don't think you can do decent science without a metaphysical bent. I suspect that the majority of scientists have similar leanings - whether pursued or not in any deliberate way.
 
Abrahamic religion is the biggest spell of all time.
For western culture this is certainly true. It has given us Judaism, Christianity and Islam. How a Middle Eastern faith tradition came to dominate Europe, and why, is little understood - if at all. Siedentop had a bit of a go in Inventing the Individual. Others have contributed bits and pieces, but nothing coherent and systematic - at least so far as I have found.

But we need to be careful of dismissing the tradition as a foundation relative to what it became - in Christianity at least ( I simply can't speak for the other 2). I think that Siedentop was onto something with his notion of the emergence of the individual - not that Christianity caused it, more that it was the vehicle which carried an impetus that arose out of the Roman empires disruption of cultures. Christianity is, in fact, far more than Abrahamic content. It has also that potent fusion of Greek and Egyptian mysteries. In this sense the Abrahamic tradition is no more than an outer carrier of a more complex inner motivating force.

But is is also true that the 'spell' of theology and organisational conformity has entranced many and distorted and debased much. We can look at Christianity as a final failure as its form degrades. But the legacies of the core message not only remain, they constitute the core of most Western cultural ethics today. In a sense the delivery vehicle is being discarded while the payload is seeping into the heart of a culture. That is not to say that Christianity is a sole influence. The ancient mystery traditions paralleled it. As Europeans travelled further they brought back influences from the Far East, India, China and Japan. And, of course indigenous European traditions added to the mix.

There is no simple or easy explanation to describe how and why where we are now. Bu clinging to the Abrahamic faith traditions is seriously not only unnecessary and anachronistic - it retards growth and adaptation to what is here now and what is coming.
 
It's huge and I don't understand why. 2 nights ago I was grocery shopping and seen a girl I met from one of those new age metaphysical groups. We chatted and asked each other how we were doing and what's going on in our lives now. When I asked her she said she goes to church and preaches the gospel of Jesus, her eyes got wide and she sounded deluded, it was off putting to say the least. My ego so bad wanted to say Jesus Christ is a title just as Lucifer is. Lucifer being the first redeemer, but I stopped. I was happy I didn't hurt anyone's feelings and by passed an egoic but truthful response to me. She added me on Facebook and messaged me that Jesus is the best drug better then LSD. I was taken back my stomach turned, I even think I broke out in to a sweat. All that I have been through the last 3 years and I come back around to this fanaticism? The icing on the cake was saying meditation was self centered?

She didn't know how egotistical she was being, it's quiet and not loud but it's there. The preaching, the fanatical pleas, mediation self centered I couldn't I took the bait I posted a video I enjoy and went to bed thinking she would block me. She did unless she deactivated her profile coincidentally

This was the video
 
What it tells me is that our current realm is NOT “base reality.” And that these other realms are not these spooky “spiritual realms.” They are just other places, like our current place, where conscious beings live. They are no more or less “spiritual” than our current Universe. I now look at what most people call “spiritual realms” as just other places as I do France, or Japan etc. The “ghosts” who live in these places aren’t ghosts, they’re just conscious beings like me living elsewhere. And some of these places are completely as physical as our Universe (apparently based on a plethora of credible reports).
wow... Nice one... That really hit me :)
 
A number of years ago I talked to Dean Radin and one of my questions for him why he didn't take the stars from his psi subject pool and run experiments with them as opposed to totally random samples. My point was that instead of getting results that required calculating P values that appear obscure and getting accused of suffering "file drawer" effects, etc, why not get results that would blow the socks off anyone reading the results and be undeniable? He responded that he wasn't interested in blowing the socks off anyone. He was convinced of the reality of psi and that's all that mattered.
I asked Dean Radin question as well (I think it's actually recorded on one of my previous interviews) but I remember his answer differently. I remember him saying there are different research questions to the situation you describe. First, is there a reality to the phenomenon? for that, Superstars are best. Radin, told me that he felt this question had been answered to his satisfaction within the enormous body of psi research. the second question is whether psi is an innate human capability measurable across the population at large.
 
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Yes, when I had my run-in with an anomalous craft - especially the visual portion of the engagement, I curiously found my mind attempting to erase the whole event. Fortunately I had disciplines in place which prevented it (and help in stopping this process, from the other 7 people who also witnessed it - while we were all in the moment)
fascinating! pls allow me to repost a question I just asked Mike in another thread:
may I ask you a question about this? I've read accounts suggesting some of this is the result of poor screen memory technology on the part of ET (IYKWIM). I remember one account where the guy was told thru telepathic message "why are you getting so upset you're not going to remember any of this anyway" (paraphrasing). taken at face value, and assuming it wasn't MILAB, the implication is that ET doesn't totally understand human memory / trauma / consciousness
 
fascinating! pls allow me to repost a question I just asked Mike in another thread:
may I ask you a question about this? I've read accounts suggesting some of this is the result of poor screen memory technology on the part of ET (IYKWIM). I remember one account where the guy was told thru telepathic message "why are you getting so upset you're not going to remember any of this anyway" (paraphrasing). taken at face value, and assuming it wasn't MILAB, the implication is that ET doesn't totally understand human memory / trauma / consciousness
I don't know enough and can only therefore speculate. So here goes, 90% speculation: :D

I found it curious that my mind was attempting to erase the anomalous portions of the encounter - and not the period of time in which the craft was 'emulating' a COMAIR flight (albeit with no IFF squawk) as it drew closer.

1. We were obviously a military Anti Air Warfare (AAW) ship with new capabilities, they had to have known that fact by our lit radar signatures.​
2. If they did not desire to be considered anomalous, they could easily craft a transponder and generate a generic 4000 code. Why not do that?​
3. They emulated a COMAIR flight only long enough to get in front of us and do a 'Look at me, woo hooo!' set of actions.​
4. Then why the partial secrecy, mind erasure mechanism pre-set in place or imparted?​

So, in terms of traditional human motivations, there exists a unique interplay between deception and tacit disclosure intents. It was not completely one direction nor the other.

Thus, given this schizophrenic set of objectives, it becomes difficult to subsequently draw a conclusion that they were mistaken inside a now dependent course of suggestion - influences upon the human mind. I have to answer other questions first, before I know how to ask the human mind question. To wit:

Few things they do appear to be dependent upon right angles and straight lines. In similar ethic do they conduct their intent. They have no role for such difficultly-attained 'simplicity' nor linearity in thinking. The effulgence of irony is expressed in how difficult it is to attain simplicity.

Rather they find utility in straightforwardness, economy and elegance, and there is a stark difference. We may not even recognize the latter, as it will appear highly asymmetrical (schizophrenic). Perhaps a learned defense mechanism from eons inside the 6 to 12 dimensional fabric of our home (prison) - knowing both the dangers and jewels found therein.

Evade the dangers by your very instinctual habit - not by intent. A rabbit never runs in a straight line to its destination. This does not make the rabbit therefore, a liar. A fox never becomes solely nocturnal nor diurnal. This does not make the fox therefore, a cheater. Leave the jewels mercifully untouched - however at the same time, never prejudice knowledge. Johnny Cash was wrong, as it is evil which demands that one walk the line. Evil is a thin Wittgenstein object - Good bears the eccentricity of both being undefined, disguised in chaos, and yet is robust nonetheless.

They did not emulate a 4000 code, because it is against their very nature? Perhaps the 'deception and disclosure' is not a set of intent at all - merely elaborate psychologies (doors of perception) our minds craft, in order to walk its thin line of sanity, intact?

They are not domesticated.
 
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