Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Apr 3, 2018.
How are you determining ‘value’ here?
It has nothing to with making a quick buck. Take the poem “The Raven” by Edgar Allan Poe. Do you think he came up with this idea in a “sudden burst of creativity”? If you guessed that you’d be wrong. It was partly inspired by the talking raven in “Barnaby Rudge: A Tale of the Riots of Eighty” by Charles Dickens. Another example is Romeo and Juliet which is based upon “Pyramus and Thisbe” by Ovid. I think you might be misunderstanding what “good artists copy, great artists steal” means. To copy a work exactly is unoriginal, unimaginative, and ultimately redundant to the arts. But stealing another person’s story, style, character design,etc. and adding your own input is what “original” thinking is. With time I could paint exactly like Salvador Dali, but what good would that do? Instead I take elements of his work and incorporate them with my own personal touch. Creativity can be reduced to inspiration and inspiration is looking/listening at something that already exists, so therefore we have and always will steal from other artists, whether consciously or unconsciously.
So what inspired scientists who came up with answers to tough problems in their own practices in their dreams?
Discovery of the Structure of Benzene and Aromatic Chemistry
August Kekulé had been worrying about how the atoms in benzene are arranged.
It was a tough problem, because the ratio of carbon and hydrogen atoms was unlike that seen in other hydrocarbon compounds.
On a cold night in 1865, he had been working on the problem in his room.
Unable to find a solution, he turned his chair to the fire and dozed.
He began dreaming of atoms dancing. Gradually the atoms arranged themselves into the shape of a snake. Then the snake turned around and bit its own tail.
The image of the snake, tail in its mouth, continued to dance before his eyes. When Kekulé awoke, he realized what the dream had been telling him:
Benzene molecules are made up of rings of carbon atoms.
Understanding these aromatic rings opened up an extremely important, completely new field of chemistry – aromatic chemistry – and a new understanding of chemical bonding.
The serpent eatings its own tail a very "popular" occult symbol hmmmmm
The Ouroboros is a Greek word meaning "tail devourer," and is one of the oldest mystical symbols in the world. It can be perceived as enveloping itself, where the past (the tail) appears to disappear but really moves into an inner domain or reality, vanishing from view but still existing.
The ouroboros has several meanings interwoven into it. Foremost is the symbolism of the serpent biting, devouring, or eating its own tail. This symbolizes the cyclic Nature of the Universe: creation out of destruction, Life out of Death. The ouroboros eats its own tail to sustain its life, in an eternal cycle of renewal. It is sometimes depicted in a lemniscate shape (figure eight) as well.
The Serpent biting its own tail is first seen as early as 1600 years BC in Egypt as a symbol of the sun, and represented the travels of the sun disk. From there it moved to the Phonecians and then to the Greeks, who gave it its name, Ouroboros, which means devouring its tail.
In mythology, the Oroborus is a symbol representing the Milky Way galaxy. Myth refers to a serpent of light residing in the heavens. The Milky Way is this serpent, and viewed at galactic central point near Sagittarius, this serpent eats its own tail. Many ancients used the galaxy to calculate cosmic and earth cycles.
Occultism the father of science and religion pay your respects
I’m talking about inspiration that comes while we are awake. Dreams that serve to inspire are a different matter altogether. Though I think dreams that serve as inspiration for art are caused by the subconscious mind, so it still has do with “stealing” another’s art.
This phenomena is quite apparent in the world, especially the sciences. You might be interested in the story of Ramanujan:
Maybe! b/c 'steal' to me means that which is not given freely. So, when I offer my ideas to the public, and they get used, this is not stealing. This is my idea of perfection and the way creativity is meant to be. Words matter, and stealing is an ugly-ass word.
I would say it goes much further and deeper. This is a symbol of regeneration, which often gets missed in quotidian occult discussion, no? The snake doesn't need its tail, they regrow. Spend a day of reflection on that part of the symbology!
Stealing from where? another mind? Or the "infinite consciousness"?
Maybe valuable art is art that helps us to live in, or engage with, the world. Or perhaps it's art that gets even close to doing justice to its subject!
I’d go with “infinite consciousness” for some cases. But sometimes dreams are insights into how you feel deep down inside, which serves as inspiration for art.
What does it say when that which you are trying to express from deep down inside or from the infinite consciousness, or from whatever/wherever, when you think/feel that what you are doing in that equation as an individual mining that field is best termed as 'stealing'? Even in 'quote's.' Who made that word for you, what makes that word seem like the best/only one?
The language is the primary problem, get the language right, and we've got a minimal shot at making sense of this.
I use the word stealing because it is th best word to use in my opinion. When I use it, I don’t mean literal stealing, like a thief stealing something. I more or less mean inspiration/personal interpretation. Do you have a better word?(not being snarky, asking a genuine question).
Do we really understand the meaning of infinity?
A camera that is temporarily fixed at one point will not be able to discover itself, or a knife will not be able to cut itself, some will explain that it is due to the toughness of the brain. I find it silly, for example, a computer that analyzes its own structure but does not feel the second person's sense of self-reference.
It was not logical at first (for some materialists). But whether a physical thing logic can describe whether it can be applied to a non-deterministic one
If you are so amazed and shocked by a spoon breaking to the point where you think I must have made the story up, you are more gullible the I am.
I am reading Dean's book - Real Magic. I wouldn't mind getting a side discussion on it with anybody else reading it. I like where Dean is going in his exploration.
I had a quick look at this guy. He honoured 4 people as his inspiration - 3 of whom I do not rate, and 1 I know too little about to comment. But I have downloaded a video from YouTube to watch later. He could be interesting as a guest on Skeptiko.
It's not that I think you made the story up, or that I am shocked by spoon-breaking, or that I'm not prone to gullibility on an embarrassing level. It's really more that I don't trust you, or the spoon-breaker with audience, or the audience, or anyone I don't know and can't look in the eyes, with their real name attached, and say, ok, for you, and you alone in this moment, I will suspend my disbelief, for a moment. Attach your name, your life, your beliefs, align all that you are with what you say, then, and only then, will I commit to an ounce of 'faith' on your behalf, that ounce being more valuable and ephemeral than ether.
Finding it pretty dull and basic so far, would love if your insights could spice it up for me a notch or several!
Separate names with a comma.