Alex
Administrator
very Gnostic :) but allow me to keep hammering on my nail... how does this fit with what we're getting back from the near-death experience science?
Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka, American Cosmic’s Breakaway Civilization |417|
- Thread starter Alex
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Alex
Administrator
what do you think of Shushan's theory?
Alex
Administrator
I think Shushan makes a strong case... where do you find fault.
It seems to me that other "contact modalities" (e.g, mushrooms, ET) introduce noise ( left-hand-path-ish shenanigans) into the signal.
Alex
Administrator
seems to me that he looked at a lot... I would love it if someone would dig into the research and find the exact number
David Bailey
Member
Right, and anyway, all those concepts overlap somewhat once you strip them of their labels which forces them to look like alternatives.
I'm not sure there is enough research on NDE's in other cultures. Also where there is a strong cultural bias, it may be hard to get at the truth - does anyone fancy doing NDE research in Afghanistan?
IMHO, that is going too far. First of all, the mere fact that NDEs happen is important and interesting, second there are a lot of essentially paranormal phenomena involved - such as reporting obscure details of the resuscitation procedure, and sometimes learning of their future in this life.
I don;t think there is any reason to say that most NDErs are arrogant, but they may struggle to describe what exactly happened to them.
David
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David Bailey
Member
hypermagda
Member
Alex, whether you decide to interview Dr Gallimore or not, I really, really recommend you listen to this very recent interview with him (released just a couple of days ago) - I know, it's long but it's very interesting and it covers A LOT of ground. I find it excellent because, in the words of Dr Gallimore himself (from his comment on Youtube):
"I actually felt that James did an excellent job at probing my ideas -- it isn't the job of the interviewer to agree with me on everything (certainly not with ideas like this), and it's nice to be pushed on some pretty wild concepts I've put out there. I've definitely faced some hostility because of these ideas, and this interview certainly wasn't hostile, although he definitely pushed back at points, which I think is precisely how an interview ought to be conducted."
I'd also love to hear Eric's (Newhill) take on all this, because Dr Gallimore basically is saying something similar to what I think Eric has been saying in the Forum, ie, that it's all about the focus of our consciousness....this gets discussed especially towards the end of the interview - lots of food for thought there.
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I could not find an analysis of such statistics. The reality of communication during pre-modern times though I would think render any claim to empiricism, merely conjecture. Only the absolute elite, or mundane scribe or accountant, typically recorded in any kind of permanent media.
However I did find a study held in Mythopedia (no bias there of course), called Three Ancient Reports of Near-Death Experiences: Bremmer Revisited Marinus van der Sluijs, M.A.London, UK. The third near death experience being more of a trancendental meditation, and not a 'death' event - I have left it out.
Er the Pamphylian
Death: Slain in Battle
Awoke: On his funeral pyre after 12 days
Deity Observed: Female goddess of necessity/force, Ananke; The Three Fates, Clotho, Atropos, and Lachesis (Birth/Embodiment, Fate and Death)
Observed: Souls moving in large numbers throughout heaven upward and downward through passages based upon how they were judged. Then after 7 days they were required to enter a giant rainbow pillar, much brighter than a rainbow. This pillar was the female deity Ananke's 'necessity' - the force that drives all things. The people selected from The Three Fates, their allotment for the next life, and then drank from a river which erased their memories - entering on the eighth day into their next life.
Thespesius of Soli (His born again name post-death)
Death: Fall and Concussion Event
Awoke: At his funeral after 3 days
Deity Observed: The Framers
Observed: His self arose from his body. His 'breath' was his whole being and he had 360 degree vision. Met his family member who had died when young. This family member took him on a tour of the life after. He showed him Lethe (Oblivion) along with a region of "those who were suffering punishment". His final vision was of ‘‘the souls returning to a second birth, as they were forcibly bent to fit all manner of living things and altered in shape by The Framers of these [living things]."
The common elements I estimate (not science, but a reasoned guess) from reading this study.
1. They saw what they were culturally trained to expect.
2. Recorded/Noteworthy/Influential ancient NDE's involved more often than today, heavily traumatic and cruel forms of actual death-inducing events. Not the calm sated environment of a hospital. Nor could their actual death of course, be verified.
3. Recorded/Noteworthy/Influential ancient NDE's tended to focus judgement/puishment and an abyss (Sheol, Lethe, etc). Hell as we know it, was not introduced until well after the 4th Century bce.
4. Near Death Experiencers in ancient civilized contexts, became spiritual-religious celebrities. This compromised their objectivity and would lend to a more up-spun portion of hellish, judgement and visceral-reaction-inducing recounts.
5. Nobody was going to leave their vital chores and travel two days to attend a lecture featuring ushy-gooshy feel good, run of the mill NDE's. They got that from grandma when she was dying in the back room. Pleasant NDE's were much less often recorded, as they were gauche and uninteresting.
6. Such visceral-horror movie fodder bore the dual benefit (silent partnership) of increased gate/book proceeds and also served to increase the tithes to the religious houses.
We see this today, wherein Christian evangelical NDE media outlets tend to push classic Hell NDE's, and certain researchers find their revenue to go up substantially if they focus on hell as their specialty or differentiating set of statistics - while more secular NDE researchers find them much less often (8 to 1 swings in bias). I suspect this played out as a common theme in antiquity.What these six self-reinforcing social mechanisms (a Lindy mechanism called an Ontological Spiral) served to do, was to amplify the negative NDE artificially. No wonder we created such horrid religions in the past.
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Eric Newhill
New
David,
You're reading me wrong. I think NDEs are real and clearly demonstrate that awareness as an individual continues after the physical body stops working (i.e. is dead).
The Tibetan Book of the Dead says that the images that the recently departed experience are thought forms from their own mind. I was saying that the being of light could be such a thing.
I do think it is arrogant to say that the god of everything - the entire multiverse - meets you when you die and talks to you. IMO, the Being of Light may be a thought form representing the higher self - or, if not, a lesser god that looks over humans.
Alex
Administrator
I always think metaphor. how about you?
Alex
Administrator
as you know I'm generally with you on this point, but american cosmic challenges some of this... we're looking at some pretty advanced rational intelligence technology that seems to be encroaching into these areas we've called spiritual.
Alex
Administrator
I can't remember where we left this... did you invite him on my behalf? if he shows interest I would be happy to have him on. you might want to point him to this interview.
Eric Newhill
New
Hypermagda,
I skipped through the vid because I didn't have time to watch the whole thing. I did listen to more at the end.
I don't disagree with anything that was said, but that guy's nose ring is really distracting!
I think Dr Gallimore and I are on the same page. However, maybe there's nuanced difference. As long as we are having the experience of being in the physical dimension with a body, the body is an anchor that limits the amount of access to other dimensions; unless you want to die (be freed from the body) - and that is something I don't recommend until it's your time.
Our karma and dharma right now is to have a body and work through some things in the physical realm. It's good to have the right perspective - a spiritual perspective - so we understand that we are a spirit/mind experiencing a body as opposed to a body imaging it has a spirit/mind. I don't know why it is our karma and dharma to do this. I can speculate, but I really don't know. I have a sense about it, but that's a different topic for a different day.
I have used psychedelics - and still do on rare occasions, but I'm not so far into them as these guys are. I think there are other ways once you have experienced the psychedelics and integrated what they showed you. Dr. Gallimore is way more into brain functioning than I am. I'm more into consciousness functioning, which I think is independent of the brain.
EDIT: I watched more of the vid = I think the good Dr. is behind the times. He wants to know if the information obtained in altered states (e.g. DMT Land) is "real" (i.e. information to coming to us from an external source). Well we know it is! We know that mediums (real ones), people having NDEs and OBEs (at least as far as I'm concerned on the latter) do receive veridical info that didn't come in via their brains. That's what I'm talking about when I'm going on about a shift in the focus of awareness. A shift from brain based/physical based to spirit based. So I think the Dr. is in grade school and I'm trying to talk at a college level and seeking to get to grad school.
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Alex
Administrator
check out:
https://lamp.academia.edu/GregoryShushan
he's published quite a bit on this. I'm going to ask him to come back on.
Eric Newhill
New
Alex,
Nice vid.
Yes. I imagine all kinds of ancient and prehistoric people got hit on the head in combat, fell off cliffs, got mauled by beasts and managed to revive - and then told their amazing story of being out-of-body and encountering intelligences wherever their minds went. This would include seeing dead family and friends (giving rise to ancestor worship). The whole shebang.
I mean we know that OBEs and NDEs occur from sudden impact accidents. Victim suffers a severe blow, appears knocked out but is having an OBE/NDE and then spontaneously revives. I have read quite a few credible accounts of this. You don't need to have a heart attack and be resuscitated to experience an NDE.
David Bailey
Member
Well possibly - actually the expression makes me cringe because I am never really sure if the user knows what he/she means.
I mean, if it is a metaphor, someone needs to spell out in detail what it is a metaphor of.
LOL!
David
Hurmanetar
New
How does it not fit? NDEs cover such a broad range they’re kind of like any other religious text: you can read into them what you will, but those with good hearts generally get something good out of studying them. :)
Here is one more for your records, Eric:
As a seeker of truth regarding our existance here I am sometimes granted a substantial morsel of food for thought.
I had an old friend who for this story I will name, "Jack." Jack was about as close to a Canadian backwoods redneck hillbilly as a person can get. There is no way he could know anything about Near Death Experiences, but this is what he told me:
"I was crossing railroad tracks where the crossing guards had not dropped so I began to drive across", he said. "Suddenly I looked to one side and saw a train blasting toward me. Oh my God, I'm dead!", he thought. At that instant Jack saw his whole life play before his eyes. "It was like a movie!" He said, "I saw things I didn't even remember!" (till then) "And sitting beside me on the seat, although no one will believe this, was an Angel! ...And I felt a spell of such peace!" He said. Meanwhile the train sheared off the front of his old cattle truck neatly at the firewall leaving the debris thereof along the tracks. Aside from being shook up considerably and suffering a bruised and what would prove to be a chronically painful shoulder, Jack was essentially okay.
For Jack it was a life changing moment. For me, as someone who had been reading of near death experiences (NDE's) out of body experiences (OBE's) and fear death experiences (FDE's), listening to his story of an event which happened over twenty years hence I had no reason to doubt it was genuine.
I was just reacting to reducing the motivation of all religion to what we understand as nde's. They obviously carry much power in that regard. I'll give Shushan a listen - thanks
B
Baccarat
Seeing Jesus or Buddha doesn't mean you actually seen Jesus in nde it's likely an identity signature an archtype