Dr. Jacques Vallée’s Diaries Reveal What Most Scientists Still Deny |359|

#21
I'm aware that Geller was tested, but I doubt he was ever on board with the scientific process. I find it impossible to imagine a compliant Uri Geller simply bending stuff, and much easier to picture the fidgety, obsessively talkative mentalist who waved cutlery around and haunted our TV screens. He certainly cheated and was never answerable as to why or to what extent. Uri had a fugitive power that only manifested through his own belief and that of an audience, one which faded under the spotlight of doubt, or he was a talented showman. The ambiguity was something he was largely responsible for, as though he needed to cloak whatever gift he may have had in Barnum. He reminds me of a certain kind of salesman, the one who directs the conversation, seals off the alternatives, and has you signing the documentation to make him stop. The older Uri is a Uri Geller tribute act, distracting the interviewer from his spoon bending exploits into whatever his next thing is. Knowing what's real with Geller is like juggling mercury, and Uri likes it that way for reasons we can only guess at.
 
#23
This show is apparently about a book. I may be distracted because I'm listening to the show right now, but I don't see the name of the book mentioned either on the website or here in the discussion. So, which book are we talking about?
 
#24
From the transcript:
http://skeptiko.com/jacques-vallee-diaries-reveal-what-scientists-deny-359/
There was some justification, right after the war, there was a time of great turmoil and great uncertainty. The nuclear weapons had been deployed for the first time, there was a lot of suspicion in the world, [and] you could understand that the files would have been kept secret. I don’t have an issue with that actually, I think government has a responsibility to keep certain things in confidence, if only to protect the witnesses and to protect the future. But you know, this is 70 years later. What do they have today that needs to be kept so…?​

This is straight from the transcript so it is relevant to the podcast.

Vallee is touching on the crux of the problem. Some secrecy might have been advisable at the time but why is it still secret?

Here is the explanation to the question Vallee poses in the interview:

Once you give a government agency the power to decide what should be kept secret, you have given them a tool they can use to usurp power and human nature will never let them give up that power. The power to classify information has given the intelligence agencies the power to do whatever they want and they have used that power to take over the government: They can classify anything they choose so no one can find out what they are doing or question the need for their activities or secrecy. They gain influence over defense contractors by awarding government contracts. The money from those contracts, which comes from the tax payers - you and me, is then used to get control over the government through campaign donations by the defense contractors to politicians and through job offers for retired politicians and aides. After the intelligence agencies commit a few crimes they realize they can never give up power or they will be prosecuted and they then commit more crimes protecting themselves (killing, intimidating, financially ruining, smearing the character of whistle blowers and anyone who opposes them or their projects) and because once you are committed to a pattern of crime and have no risk of punishment, there is no incentive to limit yourself to legal means.

If they start to disclose what is known about ufos and aliens, people will begin to ask questions about how it was kept secret and rumors of crimes committed in keeping it secret will resurface. People will want to know what else is being hidden. The intelligence agencies fear a slippery slope that could put their power at risk and also put individuals at risk for criminal prosecution.

What may have started as a justified concern about national security and public order has blown up into an extra-constitutional network that has usurped the power of elected officials and thus the power of the voters, the people, democracy. It might have seemed like a good idea at the time. In hindsight it was a horrible mistake.

That is why government information on aliens and ufo's is still secret.
 
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#26
Once you give a government agency the power to decide what should be kept secret, you have given them a tool they can use to usurp power and human nature will never let them give up that power. The power to classify information has given the intelligence agencies the power to do whatever they want and they have used that power to take over the government: They can classify anything they choose so no one can find out what they are doing or question the need for their activities or secrecy. They gain influence over defense contractors by awarding government contracts.
While that is undoubtedly true, if government wants to keep UFOs secret they've made a terrible job of it. NATO bigwigs, police chiefs, former senators, combat and civil aviation pilots are happy to talk about their experiences to camera. Cover-ups are amateur, as in the Phoenix case where the authorities dropped flares an hour after the sighting so they could legitimately claim people probably saw flares in the night sky. Because a humourless government lackie tells observers nothing happened tonight does not mean his superiors have a pickled grey in Area 51. More likely is the fact no one including chiefs of staff have a clue what's going on. The Whitehouse can't keep a blowjob quiet so intergalactic contact is unlikely to evade the whistle blowers. If aliens wanted discretion and the ears of the powerful, why would they appear to a few thousand people in Belgium or Japanese 747 pilots?

It's apparent to me that something's going on and it's smarter than us and the boffins. I very much doubt it recognises any earthly government.
 

Alex

Administrator
#27
Vallee has managed to overcome this issue in a way that few others have. He has pointed out the need for basics such as a comprehensive database of information on UFO sightings. He has helped to set up companies doing the types of scientific analysis required for his latest work on isotopic analysis of anomalous aerial artifacts. And he quietly continues to collect data and preserve it as best he can.
well put. he has clearly distinguished himself.
 
#28
It seems to me that if anyone else wants to use science to study ufos they are on the wrong track, they are stuck in a box, they are constrained by the old ways of thinking that have led nowhere. But Vallee has a new approach: he is using science to study ufos. He is a genius with a new perspective and is breaking new ground.

It's all consciousness, except for the samples Vallee is studying with mass spectrometers.

Vallee is interesting and helpful when he is presenting information to his audience. But, obviously, I don't really get why he and other people think he has a unique perspective on the problem. He says he does and people say he does. But I don't see it I just hear talking around and about it. This is a problem in many areas of paranormal research: because it is outside the mainstream, each investigator thinks like he discovered/invented the field.
 
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#29
Would have liked more on his views of consciousness, as Vallee was the first to question the materialistic paradigm that it is obviously a physical solid universe with physical ETs and ships. but a good interview.
 
#30
The experiencers and investigators who were not materialists to begin with never questioned the materialist paradigm because they were never boxed in by it in the first place.

I picked up on the the coincidence of various types of paranormal phenomena and ufo / alien phenomena as reported in first hand accounts of experiencers long before I ever heard of Vallee.
 
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#31
Let me put it this way: Years, decades, after Vallee's ideas have been accepted by many mainstream investigators he and others are still stuck on pushing it as if no one is taking it seriously. This confuses the hell out of me because I am trying to understand what is not being accepted when his ideas are already widely accepted.

No one, not even Vallee, is saying the ships are not matter. I think he should stop derogating people for using science to study them exactly the way he is.
 
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#32
Alex's question at the end of the podcast:

What do you make of the "ordinary" way Dr. Valee talks about such extraordinary events--particularly extraordinary science--and does this reflect some deeper knowledge about things that most of us just don't know about?
I suppose it must be the latter - people are not familiar with the phenomena.

... because I don't really accept the premise of the question. What exactly do you consider extraordinary events and extraordinary science? People have been reporting the phenomena for centuries.

I've never been to China but I don't consider it extraordinary because many other people have reported about it. So what is extraordinary about paranormal phenomena?
 
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#33
ok, but the problem with McKenna's blurring of form and consciousness is that it doesn't take long until we reach the nonsensical... and while that might be where we wind up it's not where most of us live :)

so, if McKenna's UFO appeared out of the mist and returned there, and if that means all material objects do the same then what's the point doing anything. I like playing the consensus reality game... at least a little bit :)
When you really get down to it, the lines between form and consciousness are rather blurry. It's a bit like Tibetan-style non-dualism or Niels Bohr's complementarity. Is this table solid? Yes, of course! Is this table solid? No, of course not!

Anyway, McKenna's main point, I reckon, was that it's helpful to keep the possibility of complementary contradictions in mind when dealing with phenomena that seem to break with consensus reality. He also viewed psychedelic experiences, like UFOs, to be glimpses into an alternate reality or dimension of some sort.

UFOs do seem to be incursions into, rather than inhabitants of, the status quo. So, keeping in in mind the environmental specific development of our senses and language, it's no wonder that something outside of our perceptual ability would present itself through cultural filters and with all sorts of attendant personal cognitive quirks coming along for the ride.

Silliness and contradiction seem almost inevitable.
 
#34
For the nuts and bolts crowd, I highly recommend this book. The author, a NASA scientist, studied reports of UFO sightings and found common features in many of them. Using his knowledge of physics he was able to explain how they could do what they did and he was able to explain even the extraordinary aspects of their behavior.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Unconventional_Flying_Objects.html?id=n5fa3j60u6sC


Unconventional Flying Objects: A Scientific Analysis

Paul R. Hill

Paul Hill was a well-respected NASA scientist when, in the early 1950s, he had a UFO sighting. Soon after, he built the first flying platform and was able to duplicate the UFO's tilt-to-control maneuvers. Official policy, however, prevented him from proclaiming his findings. "I was destined," says Hill, "to remain as unidentified as the flying objects."

For the next twenty-five years, Hill acted as an unofficial clearing house at NASA, collecting and analyzing sightings' reports for physical properties, propulsion possibilities, dynamics, etc. To refute claims that UFOs defy the laws of physics, he had to make "technological sense... of the unconventional object."

After his retirement from NASA, Hill finally completed his remarkable analysis. In Unconventional Flying Objects, published posthumously, he presents his findings that UFOs "obey, not defy, the laws of physics." Vindicating his own sighting and thousands of others, he proves that UFO technology is not only explainable, but attainable.​
 
#35
Does this excerpt from the wikipedia page on Vallee correctly and completely summarize Vallee's views? The footnote references one of Vallee's books. If not, how is it wrong?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Vallée#Interpretation_of_the_UFO_evidence

Interpretation of the UFO evidence

Vallée proposes that there is a genuine UFO phenomenon, partly associated with a form of non-human consciousness that manipulates space and time. The phenomenon has been active throughout human history, and seems to masquerade in various forms to different cultures. In his opinion, the intelligence behind the phenomenon attempts social manipulation by using deception on the humans with whom they interact.

Vallée also proposes that a secondary aspect of the UFO phenomenon involves human manipulation by humans. Witnesses of UFO phenomena undergo a manipulative and staged spectacle, meant to alter their belief system, and eventually, influence human society by suggesting alien intervention from outer space. The ultimate motivation for this deception is probably a projected major change of human society, the breaking down of old belief systems and the implementation of new ones. Vallée states that the evidence, if carefully analyzed, suggests an underlying plan for the deception of mankind by means of unknown, highly advanced methods. Vallée states that it is highly unlikely that governments actually conceal alien evidence, as the popular myth suggests. Rather, it is much more likely that that is exactly what the manipulators want us to believe. Vallée feels the entire subject of UFOs is mystified by charlatans and science fiction. He advocates a stronger and more serious involvement of science in the UFO research and debate.[10] Only this can reveal the true nature of the UFO phenomenon.
...
10. ^ Jacques Vallée, Revelations. Ballantine Books, 1991, p.247-252​
 
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#36
http://paradigmresearchgroup.org/Webpages/Shift-EnduringEnigmaOfUFO.pdf

Gordon Cooper, in an address to the United Nations, said:
“I believe that these extraterrestrial vehicles and their crews
are visiting this planet from other planets . . . For many years,
I have lived with a secret, in a secrecy imposed on all specialists
and astronauts.
I can now reveal that every day, in the
United States, our radar instruments capture objects of form
and composition unknown to us. And there are thousands of
witness reports and a quantity of documents to prove this,
but nobody wants to make them public.”
Because of quotes like this and many others by government employees, and evidence of multiple crash recoveries, I don't see how anyone can deny the government is keeping information secret. What is the evidence that the government is not keeping it secret but that the illusion of secrecy is part of the phenomena?

It has been said that the ufo project has been "outsourced" to private companies during President Nixon's term in office, and also the information is classified so only a few people in the government would be privy to it. Those in the government who say they don't know of any government information may be right, but they speak for themselves not the entire government.
 
#37
Witnesses of UFO phenomena undergo a manipulative and staged spectacle, meant to alter their belief system, and eventually, influence human society by suggesting alien intervention from outer space. The ultimate motivation for this deception is probably a projected major change of human society, the breaking down of old belief systems and the implementation of new ones. Vallée states that the evidence, if carefully analyzed, suggests an underlying plan for the deception of mankind by means of unknown, highly advanced methods.
That sounds like the flying saucers are from hell claims of some fundamentalist Christians. If inhabitants of another planet are responsible for the phenomenon, and if those entities are sufficiently technologically advanced to be able to eliminate our capacity to challenge their incursions, the style of their appearance is coy and cryptic enough to exhibit no meaningful plan. Communication media over the C20th and C21st has meant the idea of others has entered popular consciousness, rather than being restricted to isolated individuals and groups, and some people don't care either way while others think of little else.

Aliens are bad pilots who like playing peep-o, or the phenomenon is essentially psychic in the same way we think of ghostly or religious apparitions. If they are the same thing why does one occupy a historical framework we comprehend (Roman legionnaires, Victorian lamplighters, late uncle George), and the other promote technical virtuosity as an end in itself? There's no message of peace or war, mutual understanding or antipathy. It's as though someone had a Porsche 911 to compete with Mr Willoughby's barouche in Regency England, or an F-35 to do flypasts of von Richthofen over Flanders. Spectacular, but so far outside the paradigm as to be meaningless except as a spectacle.
 
#38
Vallee pretty much sums up my conclusions after decades of studying it.

* There is a genuine UFO phenomenon. Something is flying around the sky.

* The phenomenon has been active throughout human history. It is tuned to appeal to each culture.

* The intelligence behind the phenomenon is malevolent. It attempts social manipulation by using deception.

* Charlatans and the Deep State also use it for their ends. 99% of "UFOlogy" is this.

* It is highly unlikely that governments actually conceal alien evidence, as the popular myth suggests.
 
#39
That sounds like the flying saucers are from hell claims of some fundamentalist Christians.
They have a good thesis, if not the Best.

The fundamental claim of Yahweh/El's Enemy is that Man does not need him, and can become Him with enough Knowledge.

The Space Brother Religion and Scientific Utopia via Quantum bullcrap Physics both promote that idea.
 

Alex

Administrator
#40
Would have liked more on his views of consciousness, as Vallee was the first to question the materialistic paradigm that it is obviously a physical solid universe with physical ETs and ships. but a good interview.
one of the things I wanted to draw out in this interview was that the "consciousness explanation" by itself doesn't necessarily explain the phenomenon any better than the extraterrestrial hypothesis. and that some folks might be taking what Jacques Vallee has said the wrong way.

so, of course, I'm really interested in his important ideas on consciousnesses, but you can only cover so much in one hour.
 
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