Alex
Administrator
(this is an attempt to re-create a thread that was accidentally deleted by my web host)
Dear Alex ,
here is my reply to the Xe 129/ Xe132 question, I will also answer the electric universe comment
Xe129 :
It is a consensus among scientists that the Solar system formed within a half-life or so of Aluminum 26 half- life 0.7million years , from a supernova , meaning many radioactive elements were present to provide energy for geologic processes in the early planets. Among these radioactive isotopes Pu 244 half-life 82 million years ,during which it can decay by spontaneous fission releasing a characteristic pattern of Xe isotopes, Iodine ( I) 129 decaying to Xe 129 at half-life 17 million years and Hf 182 decaying to W 182 half-life 9 Million years. Since these isotopes produce well identified decay products they are useful in identifying timescales of major geologic events on terrestrial (rocky planets) planets. In terms of Xe129/Xe 132 the atmospheres of Jupiter, Earth , the Solar wind , and the gases in primordial meteorites called carbonaceous chondrites , dating from the formation of the Solar system, all resemble each other , being nearly 1:1 .
The Xe 129 / Xe 132 ratio being 2.5 on Mars is a glaring mystery, making it very different from every other known planetary or solar system reservoir, so it is natural for scientist to try to figure out natural models to explain it. This is particularly true because Xe 129 was a known nuclear weapons signature since 1945 and therefore a sensitive issue even when it was discovered on Mars. However, these models natural models to explain the Xe 129 superabundance on Mars are fraught with difficulties. The major problem is that Mars meteorite components, thought to represent the primordial Martian atmosphere also have a ratio of Xe129/Xe 132 of 1:1.
It is possible, because of the half-life of I 129 of 17 million years , to create models where Mars had an early atmosphere with xenon resembling the Mars meteorite Chassigny, which has Xe 129 /Xe 132 of 1:1 , that was then lost within a few million years due to impacts in the Early bombardment epoch[1]. During this short time of forming an early atmosphere on Mars and then losing most of it, this model explains, all the I129 was bound within rocks. Mars would then outgas a new atmosphere, this being enriched in Xe 129 from the decaying I129. One would then obtain a new Mars atmosphere, now enriched in Xe129. We will call this the EAL ( Early Atmosphere Loss) model. However, this EAL model only works if the outgassing is of only an atmosphere much smaller than the previous one. That is, it only works if Mars can barely replace its atmosphere, and is like it is now for all of its history, thin. This is because we know from trapped gases in the Mars meteorite Chassigny and other Mars meteorites, that Mars xenon isotope spectrum trapped in its early rocks is Earthlike. Therefore, if Mars simply outgases a new dense atmosphere the enhanced Xe 129 component will be overwhelmed by the same xenon mass spectrum Mars had before, which resembles Earth and the Sun in Xe129/ Xe132 . Thus EAL only works if the replacement atmosphere is like Mars atmosphere is now, thin.
There are serious problems with this EAL model. The most serious problem is that Mars atmosphere was very dense for its first ½ Billion years or more as evidenced by the numerous liquid water channels on Mars. These channels span ages, conservatively, from very early to at least 3 billion years ago. This requires a dense CO2 rich atmosphere ( roughly one atmosphere ) to maintain temperatures and pressures on Mars to allow liquid water to flow hundreds of miles for long periods of geologic time, and to flow into a Northern Ocean [2] So, if Mars lost its early atmosphere it obviously outgassed a new that was very dense and from the same solar system standard reservoirs as before, hence the extra dose of Xe129 from I 129 would have been rendered insignificant. These problems do not end there. The loss of an early atmosphere would have to have occurred within the first 17million years or so, otherwise most of the I 129 would have decayed to Xe 129 and been outgassed into the early atmosphere and lost, however, estimates for Mars accretion time ,based on Hf-W, are 10million years to 30million years [3]. Meaning Mars had barely even time to assemble into a molten sphere of lava before most of the I 129 decayed, releasing the Xe 129 into the Early Mars atmosphere rather than storing it for later. The xenon pattern for Pu 244 spontaneous fission , with a half life of 82 million years , which would be expected to contribute strongly to any replacement atmosphere in the EAL model[1], is absent, indicating any replacement atmosphere was so dense it overwhelmed any trace Xe spectrum contribution from Pu244. Krypton , a heavy noble gas like Xenon, has a distribution of isotopes that looks like the Solar Wind, and many other gases resemble Earth isotopically. To make the EAL model work one would have to postulate that xenon outgasses differently from other noble gases, and there is no evidence for this. If there was any such evidence, you would have heard of it. Some have suggested the I 129 arrived as a large number of impactors, but the known meteorite reservoirs of Xe resemble Chassigny and Earth.
So therefore, the EAL model makes sense only if you ignore the vast trove of other Mars data, including that on the other Martian gases. For such a glaring problem on Mars as the Xe 129 and so loaded with implication, even a bad model that gives it some mundane explanation will be entertained. The only other model for the why the Xe129 /Xe132 ratio on Mars occurs, is mine: that the Xe 129 was added late in Mars history.
1. Bogard, D.D.,R.N. Clayton, R.N. , Marti, K., Owen, T., and Turner, G.(2001) “Martian Volatiles: Isotopic Composition, Origin, and Evolution”, Chronology and Evolution of Mars 96, 425-458,
2. Brandenburg, John E. (1987), "The Paleo-Ocean of Mars", MECA Symposium on Mars: Evolution of its Climate and Atmosphere, Lunar and Planetary Institute, pp. 20–22,
3. Nimmo, F. & Kleine, T. How rapidly did Mars accrete? Uncertainties in the Hf-W timing of core formation. Icarus 191, 497–504 (2007)
As for the Astromomical Electric Arc theory of Mars radiation patterns:
Being a plasma physicist, I have big soft spot in my heart for the electric universe people, and agree with their fundamental thesis that EM phenomenon ,along with gravity, helps shape the universe. Now let us get down to the peculiar case of Mars.
I have seen no evidence of big electric arcs in space except at the moon Io orbiting Jupiter. I have however seen video and data from big nuclear weapon tests and went to grad school at a national lab where they did fusion research at one end and designed nuclear weapons at the other.
So I tend to offer explanations based on known and well characterized phenomenon. Mars has a very weak magnetic field and thus is a poor prospect for any big electro-dynamic phenomena leading to planet-rending electric arcs, in my opinion. So as outlandish as my hypothesis is, it at least invokes known phenomenon. For that reason i think it is more likely to explain what is seen on Mars.
That said I would love to see some cool videos of outer space arcs.
cheers
JB
Re: 129Xe, based on a quick Google search it would appear that an explanation put forward by a team of researchers is that “[132Xe was] lost by impact erosion during heavy bombardment, followed by release of 129Xe produced from 129I decay in the crust.”
Donald S. Musselwhite, Michael J. Drake & Timothy D. Swindle, “Early outgassing of Mars supported by differential water solubility of iodine and xenon” in Nature 352 (22 August 1991), 697–699.
M.J. Drake, T.D. Swindle, T. Owen & D.S. Musselwhite, “Fractionated martian atmosphere in the nakhlites?” in Meteoritics 29:6 (1994), 854–859.
I haven’t read Dr. Brandenburg's book, but would expect him to want to address this.
Dear Alex ,
here is my reply to the Xe 129/ Xe132 question, I will also answer the electric universe comment
Xe129 :
It is a consensus among scientists that the Solar system formed within a half-life or so of Aluminum 26 half- life 0.7million years , from a supernova , meaning many radioactive elements were present to provide energy for geologic processes in the early planets. Among these radioactive isotopes Pu 244 half-life 82 million years ,during which it can decay by spontaneous fission releasing a characteristic pattern of Xe isotopes, Iodine ( I) 129 decaying to Xe 129 at half-life 17 million years and Hf 182 decaying to W 182 half-life 9 Million years. Since these isotopes produce well identified decay products they are useful in identifying timescales of major geologic events on terrestrial (rocky planets) planets. In terms of Xe129/Xe 132 the atmospheres of Jupiter, Earth , the Solar wind , and the gases in primordial meteorites called carbonaceous chondrites , dating from the formation of the Solar system, all resemble each other , being nearly 1:1 .
The Xe 129 / Xe 132 ratio being 2.5 on Mars is a glaring mystery, making it very different from every other known planetary or solar system reservoir, so it is natural for scientist to try to figure out natural models to explain it. This is particularly true because Xe 129 was a known nuclear weapons signature since 1945 and therefore a sensitive issue even when it was discovered on Mars. However, these models natural models to explain the Xe 129 superabundance on Mars are fraught with difficulties. The major problem is that Mars meteorite components, thought to represent the primordial Martian atmosphere also have a ratio of Xe129/Xe 132 of 1:1.
It is possible, because of the half-life of I 129 of 17 million years , to create models where Mars had an early atmosphere with xenon resembling the Mars meteorite Chassigny, which has Xe 129 /Xe 132 of 1:1 , that was then lost within a few million years due to impacts in the Early bombardment epoch[1]. During this short time of forming an early atmosphere on Mars and then losing most of it, this model explains, all the I129 was bound within rocks. Mars would then outgas a new atmosphere, this being enriched in Xe 129 from the decaying I129. One would then obtain a new Mars atmosphere, now enriched in Xe129. We will call this the EAL ( Early Atmosphere Loss) model. However, this EAL model only works if the outgassing is of only an atmosphere much smaller than the previous one. That is, it only works if Mars can barely replace its atmosphere, and is like it is now for all of its history, thin. This is because we know from trapped gases in the Mars meteorite Chassigny and other Mars meteorites, that Mars xenon isotope spectrum trapped in its early rocks is Earthlike. Therefore, if Mars simply outgases a new dense atmosphere the enhanced Xe 129 component will be overwhelmed by the same xenon mass spectrum Mars had before, which resembles Earth and the Sun in Xe129/ Xe132 . Thus EAL only works if the replacement atmosphere is like Mars atmosphere is now, thin.
There are serious problems with this EAL model. The most serious problem is that Mars atmosphere was very dense for its first ½ Billion years or more as evidenced by the numerous liquid water channels on Mars. These channels span ages, conservatively, from very early to at least 3 billion years ago. This requires a dense CO2 rich atmosphere ( roughly one atmosphere ) to maintain temperatures and pressures on Mars to allow liquid water to flow hundreds of miles for long periods of geologic time, and to flow into a Northern Ocean [2] So, if Mars lost its early atmosphere it obviously outgassed a new that was very dense and from the same solar system standard reservoirs as before, hence the extra dose of Xe129 from I 129 would have been rendered insignificant. These problems do not end there. The loss of an early atmosphere would have to have occurred within the first 17million years or so, otherwise most of the I 129 would have decayed to Xe 129 and been outgassed into the early atmosphere and lost, however, estimates for Mars accretion time ,based on Hf-W, are 10million years to 30million years [3]. Meaning Mars had barely even time to assemble into a molten sphere of lava before most of the I 129 decayed, releasing the Xe 129 into the Early Mars atmosphere rather than storing it for later. The xenon pattern for Pu 244 spontaneous fission , with a half life of 82 million years , which would be expected to contribute strongly to any replacement atmosphere in the EAL model[1], is absent, indicating any replacement atmosphere was so dense it overwhelmed any trace Xe spectrum contribution from Pu244. Krypton , a heavy noble gas like Xenon, has a distribution of isotopes that looks like the Solar Wind, and many other gases resemble Earth isotopically. To make the EAL model work one would have to postulate that xenon outgasses differently from other noble gases, and there is no evidence for this. If there was any such evidence, you would have heard of it. Some have suggested the I 129 arrived as a large number of impactors, but the known meteorite reservoirs of Xe resemble Chassigny and Earth.
So therefore, the EAL model makes sense only if you ignore the vast trove of other Mars data, including that on the other Martian gases. For such a glaring problem on Mars as the Xe 129 and so loaded with implication, even a bad model that gives it some mundane explanation will be entertained. The only other model for the why the Xe129 /Xe132 ratio on Mars occurs, is mine: that the Xe 129 was added late in Mars history.
1. Bogard, D.D.,R.N. Clayton, R.N. , Marti, K., Owen, T., and Turner, G.(2001) “Martian Volatiles: Isotopic Composition, Origin, and Evolution”, Chronology and Evolution of Mars 96, 425-458,
2. Brandenburg, John E. (1987), "The Paleo-Ocean of Mars", MECA Symposium on Mars: Evolution of its Climate and Atmosphere, Lunar and Planetary Institute, pp. 20–22,
3. Nimmo, F. & Kleine, T. How rapidly did Mars accrete? Uncertainties in the Hf-W timing of core formation. Icarus 191, 497–504 (2007)
As for the Astromomical Electric Arc theory of Mars radiation patterns:
Being a plasma physicist, I have big soft spot in my heart for the electric universe people, and agree with their fundamental thesis that EM phenomenon ,along with gravity, helps shape the universe. Now let us get down to the peculiar case of Mars.
I have seen no evidence of big electric arcs in space except at the moon Io orbiting Jupiter. I have however seen video and data from big nuclear weapon tests and went to grad school at a national lab where they did fusion research at one end and designed nuclear weapons at the other.
So I tend to offer explanations based on known and well characterized phenomenon. Mars has a very weak magnetic field and thus is a poor prospect for any big electro-dynamic phenomena leading to planet-rending electric arcs, in my opinion. So as outlandish as my hypothesis is, it at least invokes known phenomenon. For that reason i think it is more likely to explain what is seen on Mars.
That said I would love to see some cool videos of outer space arcs.
cheers
JB