Dr. Penny Sartori, Are NDEs All Light and Love? |374|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. Wormwood

    Wormwood Member

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    That is exactly Tom Campbell’s assertion. We consciously associate travel with tunnels. And alas, it becomes so. Although I’m familiar with certain research which suggests that the tunnel experience may be significantly more common amongst westerners. Are westerners more likely to associate travel with tunnels? Idk
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  2. gabriel

    gabriel New

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    It's pure conjecture obviously, but a recurring motif of NDEs is moving at great speed with a being of light slowly appearing at the end of the tunnel. The only earthly referent is the speed of light and a duration of time. People could die and wake up in another realm, there seems to be no reason why we require a sense of travel unless some kind of space-time relocation is involved. I wouldn't want to frame the terms too literally, nor do I imagine it to be a literal physical transfer as envisioned by flying saucer cults or rapture believers. Nevertheless, some accounts do speak of lower level beings occupying the intervening space between here and there. It raises the possibility that here is the foreign land where we are strangers, a distant outpost in the psychic firmament, and we have to travel great distances to return home. What that distance represents is anyone's guess.
     
  3. Wormwood

    Wormwood Member

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    The tunnel experience seems to not occur more often than it does occur. That's based on a couple of large-scale studies, I think including Dr. Long's if I'm not mistaken. I tried digging up a couple of these studies which I know that I have encountered but couldn't find them. But if you spend some time listening to or reading people's accounts, the tunnel experience is really hit or miss. But these people all frequently end up in a "heavenly realm" irregardless of whether a tunnel was experienced or not.
     
  4. Mishelle

    Mishelle Member

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    Nice list, all I've learned loads from and doing great work for sure, and even one I don't know 'unityofthepolis', so will take a look, thanks. And, a couple I'd add b/c I think the health/agriculture angle so important, and very cutting edge too. Weston A Price and Jon Rappaport, both with constant new material that's very inspiring to see so many whistleblowers and educated, professionals moving away from the status quo.

    https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/...icine-have-a-big-problem-with-natural-health/



    https://www.westonaprice.org/podcast/depression-symptom-not-disease-part-1/
     
  5. Wormwood

    Wormwood Member

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    I think above and beyond being fooled, we are also slaves to our material bodies which have needs, which gives rise to egos, greed, pride etc. and an acting out of true character. All this is stripped when we leave our vehicles as we ditch our local personalities (which are heavily influenced by the material realm) and become aware again of who we really are.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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  6. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

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    Hi Jim

    I'd say that makes sense, and also generally is true in the life we experience now too. We learn gradually with the occasional flash of insight. I am not sure I'd use the word 'designed', I'd see it as more of a natural progression but that's only a personal opinion and I don't think it changes the point you're making.

    Yes I'd say it doesn't fit with the reports from some NDEs where people talk about 'being at one with the universe' etc but I'd only say it 'appears' to contradict, as when and if the bigger picture is revealed, it may seem perfectly compatible.

    I have probably chosen my words badly. I don't get the impression that people are pressurised to progress but that it is more like a natural flow which one can resist, at least for a time, as you indicate.

    I don't think, at least from the NDEs I have read about, that the issue of progression is mentioned to any great extent. I am referring mainly to people who report experiences very different from earth life (most ADCs I have read do not report such experiences).


    There isn't much I'd disagree with here really. Except of course we are hearing descriptions of an environment from visitors and permanent residents. Whilst there may be differences, I'd expect key elements to be the same. For example if the visitors reported that everyone communicated telepathically but the residents communicating said that wasn't the case, I'd say that's a material difference. Of course there may be many explanations for this difference but personally I don't think differences can be waved away by saying they're not real comparisons without a bit more justification for it.

    Why can't we compare the effects of dying on a person with those of an NDE?

    That's an interesting observation. It's certainly a difference. There may of course be some purpose in it.
     
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  7. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Member

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    Those are vaginas, Bro. ;)

    I'm serious. In Sacred Geometry and occult studies the Vesica Piscies is an analogy for the holy union of Father+ Mother to produce Child.

    That Union is sacred because it represents continuation of all life, the Creation, and victory over death via Salvation and/or propagation of our DNA into the future.

    See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesica_piscis

    1 + 1 = 3, mysterious eh? :)

    [​IMG]

    In Christianity that mystery is represented like this...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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  8. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Member

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    You're welcome! http://unityofthepolis.com is Kevin Cole.

    Kevin came up under Richard Grove at Tragedy & Hope. He researches more the philosophy of the "Atlanticists", and the use of that ideology (and The Trivium) as a social engineering weapon of conquest for the British Empire.

    Richard does more on The Trivium as a tool for Good. Most things have duality, a Light side and a Dark side. Same with ancient Trivium and the Seven Liberating Arts. It can be used for Good, or for Evil.

    I dig Rappaport and Weston A. Price. They got me to start eating healthy animal fats, and stop eating wheat.
     
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  9. Alex

    Alex New

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    thx for this. so we have the personal spiritual journey thing going on then we add this collective thought form thing (i.e. we are manifesting reality on an individual level and on a group level) and I think we might be nudging a little closer to understanding the experience.
     
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  10. Alex

    Alex New

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    awesome post. thx for sharing.

    let me be kinda blunt (as if you'd expect anything else) -- prove it!

    maybe Jeff Long is wrong and light and love isn't 90% when it comes to NDEs, but he's offered the best evidence we have. if he's way off someone should step up and prove it.
     
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  11. Alex

    Alex New

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    thx. I had forgotten this one!
     
  12. Wormwood

    Wormwood Member

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    Yea this theme comes through everywhere, not just NDEs. Mediumship, out of body experiences etc.

    I mean yea, people have bad experiences and shit happens, but love rules the roost.
     
  13. dpdownsouth

    dpdownsouth Member

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    Ha, thanks Charlie. Yes, I did know, but not the detail, so thanks for the info, genuine.

    Y'know, when I was a young kid I thought those fish stickers signified that the car's occupant was in the employ of a well known local frozen food brand... :)
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Member

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    Very welcome!

    It's in my name...

    Charlie = 3

    Primero = 1

    In the beginning there was only the undifferentiated, universal One of God. The Initial Scison of Creation made three things, ...one thing, the other thing, and the space between them.

    Life then propagates and differentiates through the universe, and will, I suspect, ultimately return to merge back together to become The One, Unity. 3 to 1

    Goofy I know, but I like contemplating Creation extending out, then returning to Source.
     
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  15. dpdownsouth

    dpdownsouth Member

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    Sure, I didn't think you meant "take a hard left at Zeta Reticuli."

    Yeah, like Bob Dylan said: "“I was born very far from where I'm supposed to be, and so I'm on my way home.”

    I like ideas that aren't completely dualistic and transcendent and have some sort of link to time-space..... but, as you say, it's all speculation. I mean, if you take a holistic and organismic view where self-organising wholes are made up of, and embedded in, other self organising wholes sending information back and forth through various field phenomena, then we could potentially have been deposited here via panspermia and have to make our way back to our galactic/planetary field of origin after breaking our incarnate link with the material.

    But the inescapably non-local elements of NDEs make me think that a transcendent dimension outside of space-time is the most likely 'destination'.

    Perhaps the sense of travel is merely the whoosh of being sucked out into the ocean of boundless consciousness. :)
     
  16. dpdownsouth

    dpdownsouth Member

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    So in an NDE we're moving into some kind of Jungian archetypal realm, entering a morphic resonance style field of collective human consciousness? Wow, I like it. Reincarnation and our personal spiritual journeys could then be seen as the individual contributing to the evolution of the larger collective human organism's consciousness field.... or maybe the field of our planet.... or solar system, even. Then you could look at the shamanic experience of contacting animal archetypes as two self organising sub-fields within the collective planetary field exchanging information. This is fully scalable, ie. humanity is nested within the planetary field, which in turn is nested within the solar system's field, and on and on and on.

    It's holistic, evolutionary, process orientated and organismic in it's view..... I think this is beautiful!

    Ok, calm down. :)
     
  17. Mishelle

    Mishelle Member

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    Absolutely! This is the reason I love Dr. Satori's idea to compile worldwide stories. How else might one go about proving that? Does some of the Hollywood dystopia fascination have the answer, I wonder.

    Could there be a parallel between the number of good dreams vs bad? Might that be related? Good drug trips vs bad?

    One thing I find so interesting is there seems to be a direct parallel between the local culture (in this case California) and how they are dealing with reality (in this case badly). California most definitely leads the entire world in the 'love and light' angle, not just in NDEs but it all things 'cutting edge paranormal'. And, they also leaders the Western world right now in homelessness, poverty, crisis, etc. Even going as far as 'totalitarian' norms like forced state schooling and forced vaccinations, 'progressive' gun laws, etc.

    Might these divergent aspects be related somehow? And, how?
     
  18. David Eire

    David Eire New

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    Excellent interview with a wonderful woman and scientist - thank you Alex and Penny

    As you know Alex I have always argued that NDE experiences and ultimately the afterlife itself are amenable to scientific investigation.
    The only reason they are not investigated scientifically today is the overwhelming materialist bias in the scientific community in these times.
    Obviously as Penny says this is shifting gradually and that shift is part of the development or evolution of human consciousness and culture.

    Couple of things
    Re Alex's question - in my opinion 'light & love' is the foundation state or condition of what we ultimately are. But when we die we do not necessarily return to what we ultimately are. We move or transition into the afterlife realm, which in my opinion is part of the total Earth realm and the human experience. Death and the afterlife is not the end of the human experience. What we ultimately are lies beyond both the physical realm and the afterlife realm.

    All human experience, in this physical world and in the afterlife, is subjective; meaning all human experience is interpretational and thus to some extent self generated. I am not saying there is no external world or no other people or that everything is a figment of our imagination; I mean that what we experience of the physical world and the afterlife world and of other people or souls is always subjective and interpretational. One man sees muck; another man sees fertile earth.

    Our own personal psycho-emotional and experiential state determines how we see and experience the objective world and others.

    Also when an evil person dies they are not necessarily transformed into a being of light & love just by dying.
    Their evil personal nature transitions into the afterlife realm and lives on there.

    So all of that is said to suggest why some people might have an unpleasant NDE experience. Some people may have inner fears or guilt that lead them to interpret the experience negatively or fearfully; and some may just be evil and they transition to a lower level of the afterlife realm where there are others like them who may deceive and torment them.

    I suggest this because it is in line with most of the testimony of the spiritualist and esoteric traditions of the West and the East.
    They all speak of the reality both of light & love and of evil souls or demons.
     
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  19. David Eire

    David Eire New

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    Another small point re what Alex said about the biological component in NDEs
    Death is the transition from the biological realm into the afterlife realm and so long as that process is not completed there is necessarily a biological component in the experience.
    In those who relate NDEs the death process did not complete. For one reason or another they only went part of the way and came back to biological life.
    In these times medical intervention is a major factor in the number of people not completing the death process and returning to biological life with memories of an NDE.
    The medical system does everything it can to stop people dying; sometimes inappropriately as Penny related.
    So we should expect there to be more NDEs in modern times than in earlier times when medical interventions were less successful at halting the dying process.
     
  20. Wormwood

    Wormwood Member

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    Im still not understanding the point you are referencing and which is being discussed here. Like you said, if you bring more people back to life after they've been dead, youre going to get more NDE reports. I don't see what's challenging about this. But there's a lot of smart people here, so Im probably just not understanding what is particularly intriguing about it. If technology increases, you are able to resuscitate more people, and this leads to more people having NDEs. But even if NDE's were actually equally frequent throughout different periods of history, we wouldn't know because we lacked the proper platforms with which to spread, share, and document these stories.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
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