Dr. Penny Sartori, Are NDEs All Light and Love? |374|

#61
A side step from the light-love theme, I've often wondered at the nature of the tunnel perceived in NDEs and the way it suggests travel as we understand it. Passing through what seems like a kind of wormhole on the way, with places and people, or at least entities on the journey. Heaven and hell are often emphasised as states of being, could they be places?
That is exactly Tom Campbell’s assertion. We consciously associate travel with tunnels. And alas, it becomes so. Although I’m familiar with certain research which suggests that the tunnel experience may be significantly more common amongst westerners. Are westerners more likely to associate travel with tunnels? Idk
 
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#62
Yes, it's very interesting.... we come into this world through a tunnel (birth canal), we leave through one (NDE).

I also dig the wormhole and heaven as a place idea.... it's similar to the concept of disembodied intelligences being the consciousnesses of distant stars, planets or galactic fields. I find this romantic and appealing.
It's pure conjecture obviously, but a recurring motif of NDEs is moving at great speed with a being of light slowly appearing at the end of the tunnel. The only earthly referent is the speed of light and a duration of time. People could die and wake up in another realm, there seems to be no reason why we require a sense of travel unless some kind of space-time relocation is involved. I wouldn't want to frame the terms too literally, nor do I imagine it to be a literal physical transfer as envisioned by flying saucer cults or rapture believers. Nevertheless, some accounts do speak of lower level beings occupying the intervening space between here and there. It raises the possibility that here is the foreign land where we are strangers, a distant outpost in the psychic firmament, and we have to travel great distances to return home. What that distance represents is anyone's guess.
 
#63
It's pure conjecture obviously, but a recurring motif of NDEs is moving at great speed with a being of light slowly appearing at the end of the tunnel. The only earthly referent is the speed of light and a duration of time. People could die and wake up in another realm, there seems to be no reason why we require a sense of travel unless some kind of space-time relocation is involved. I wouldn't want to frame the terms too literally, nor do I imagine it to be a literal physical transfer as envisioned by flying saucer cults or rapture believers. Nevertheless, some accounts do speak of lower level beings occupying the intervening space between here and there. It raises the possibility that here is the foreign land where we are strangers, a distant outpost in the psychic firmament, and we have to travel great distances to return home. What that distance represents is anyone's guess.
The tunnel experience seems to not occur more often than it does occur. That's based on a couple of large-scale studies, I think including Dr. Long's if I'm not mistaken. I tried digging up a couple of these studies which I know that I have encountered but couldn't find them. But if you spend some time listening to or reading people's accounts, the tunnel experience is really hit or miss. But these people all frequently end up in a "heavenly realm" irregardless of whether a tunnel was experienced or not.
 
#64
I have sorted through a LOT of conspiracy researchers over the years and found these to be the best:
Nice list, all I've learned loads from and doing great work for sure, and even one I don't know 'unityofthepolis', so will take a look, thanks. And, a couple I'd add b/c I think the health/agriculture angle so important, and very cutting edge too. Weston A Price and Jon Rappaport, both with constant new material that's very inspiring to see so many whistleblowers and educated, professionals moving away from the status quo.

https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/...icine-have-a-big-problem-with-natural-health/



https://www.westonaprice.org/podcast/depression-symptom-not-disease-part-1/
 
#65
http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2018/03/love-is-natural-state-of-consciousness.html

Love is the natural state of consciousness.

God is love.

When people experience the presence of God, they perceive this.

The natural state of consciousness is love.

At a higher level people naturally love each other. But on the earth plane we may be fooled by the illusions of the physical world. Fooled into thinking we are not loved. Fooled into not loving.

When you are relaxed, you approach your natural state.​
I think above and beyond being fooled, we are also slaves to our material bodies which have needs, which gives rise to egos, greed, pride etc. and an acting out of true character. All this is stripped when we leave our vehicles as we ditch our local personalities (which are heavily influenced by the material realm) and become aware again of who we really are.
 
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#66
Hi Jim

When people die, the initial stages are designed to help them adjust easily to prevent confusion and disorientation. If you went from a physical earth existence to a realm that was purely non-physical, it would be confusing and disorienting. It is one thing when you are taken on a visit to a new realm of existence and shown things to help you (and others) when you come back to your physical body, and another to find yourself in a permanently changed condition.
I'd say that makes sense, and also generally is true in the life we experience now too. We learn gradually with the occasional flash of insight. I am not sure I'd use the word 'designed', I'd see it as more of a natural progression but that's only a personal opinion and I don't think it changes the point you're making.

Do you think this contradicts what people learn during NDE's?
Yes I'd say it doesn't fit with the reports from some NDEs where people talk about 'being at one with the universe' etc but I'd only say it 'appears' to contradict, as when and if the bigger picture is revealed, it may seem perfectly compatible.

Do NDE's cover "rate of progress" or "presure to progress"? (As a side note, I've read accounts of people not wanting to reincarnate but after all their friends progressed to higher levels in the afterlife and they are left behind they eventually decide to do it.)
I have probably chosen my words badly. I don't get the impression that people are pressurised to progress but that it is more like a natural flow which one can resist, at least for a time, as you indicate.

I don't think, at least from the NDEs I have read about, that the issue of progression is mentioned to any great extent. I am referring mainly to people who report experiences very different from earth life (most ADCs I have read do not report such experiences).


I don't think you can really compare the effects of an NDE on a person and the effects of really dying. It is like comparing apples to oranges. NDErs are changed by their death experience, but spirits are also changed by their life experience. People retain their personality after death but the knowledge of the afterlife and all that entails does often change people who are open to change. But it varies from person to person. Someone who has a lot of strongly held beliefs might be resistant to change after death. Some (not all) materialists refuse to believe they are dead and instead believe they are having a dream. But not everyone is inflexible, some people (not all) who are brought up with religious views that do not match what they experience in the afterlife don't have any problem accepting the new reality.
There isn't much I'd disagree with here really. Except of course we are hearing descriptions of an environment from visitors and permanent residents. Whilst there may be differences, I'd expect key elements to be the same. For example if the visitors reported that everyone communicated telepathically but the residents communicating said that wasn't the case, I'd say that's a material difference. Of course there may be many explanations for this difference but personally I don't think differences can be waved away by saying they're not real comparisons without a bit more justification for it.

Why can't we compare the effects of dying on a person with those of an NDE?

The biggest difference I am aware of between NDEs and a full transition to the afterlife is that in a full transition, the life review is more of a methodical process of study and occurs after one had had time to adjust to the afterlife, rather than being blasted with it at the beginning of the experience.
That's an interesting observation. It's certainly a difference. There may of course be some purpose in it.
 
#67
Speaking of tunnels and wormholes, the mandorla:

Those are vaginas, Bro. ;)

I'm serious. In Sacred Geometry and occult studies the Vesica Piscies is an analogy for the holy union of Father+ Mother to produce Child.

That Union is sacred because it represents continuation of all life, the Creation, and victory over death via Salvation and/or propagation of our DNA into the future.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesica_piscis

1 + 1 = 3, mysterious eh? :)



In Christianity that mystery is represented like this...

 
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#68
'unityofthepolis', so will take a look, thanks.
You're welcome! http://unityofthepolis.com is Kevin Cole.

Kevin came up under Richard Grove at Tragedy & Hope. He researches more the philosophy of the "Atlanticists", and the use of that ideology (and The Trivium) as a social engineering weapon of conquest for the British Empire.

Richard does more on The Trivium as a tool for Good. Most things have duality, a Light side and a Dark side. Same with ancient Trivium and the Seven Liberating Arts. It can be used for Good, or for Evil.

I dig Rappaport and Weston A. Price. They got me to start eating healthy animal fats, and stop eating wheat.
 
#69
I'm currently working on an article on Hadephobia, the fear of Hell. It's centred around an experience I had a few years back where I really started to engage with my own latent fear of going to hell. I started to experience night terrors of waking up but still being quite dreamlike and feeling the terror of dying and hell opening up. I'd pull away strongly out of the vision until I was fully awake in my bed.

One time this opened up really strongly and I had the image of flames all around me and Satan sat on his throne in front of me. I wanted to run from it but realised I would never 'complete' the experience if that is all I did. I had a sense of totally surrendering to it, of allowing myself to be taken into that hell, handing myself over to Satan. The moment I did the whole scene transformed, Satan and the fires became an infinite ocean of love.

This is one way to look at the experience the lady Dr. Sartori mentioned had. That she was experiencing the same Love-Light that other NDEers do, but in a different way (perhaps through the lens of fear) so that it appeared as a fire.
thx for this. so we have the personal spiritual journey thing going on then we add this collective thought form thing (i.e. we are manifesting reality on an individual level and on a group level) and I think we might be nudging a little closer to understanding the experience.
 
#70
awesome post. thx for sharing.

That said, and answering Alex's questions, the 'light and love' thing is a real bee in my bonnet! I just recently wrote a blog post on "love" and I'll post that below to try to flesh out just a few of the reasons why this is, but let me preface it a little first.

Folks vastly underestimate, under report, under analyze their own negative and challenging experiences.
let me be kinda blunt (as if you'd expect anything else) -- prove it!

maybe Jeff Long is wrong and light and love isn't 90% when it comes to NDEs, but he's offered the best evidence we have. if he's way off someone should step up and prove it.
 
#71
Dutch cardiologist Pim van Lommel's prospective study into cardiac arrest and NDEs found that memory defects as a result of a complicated resuscitation were the only clinical factor to significantly affect a patient's chance of having an NDE (by reducing it). So, good memory does seem to play a significant role in the NDE experience.
thx. I had forgotten this one!
 
#72
awesome post. thx for sharing.


let me be kinda blunt (as if you'd expect anything else) -- prove it!

maybe Jeff Long is wrong and light and love isn't 90% when it comes to NDEs, but he's offered the best evidence we have. if he's way off someone should step up and prove it.
Yea this theme comes through everywhere, not just NDEs. Mediumship, out of body experiences etc.

I mean yea, people have bad experiences and shit happens, but love rules the roost.
 
#74
so thanks for the info
Very welcome!

It's in my name...

Charlie = 3

Primero = 1

In the beginning there was only the undifferentiated, universal One of God. The Initial Scison of Creation made three things, ...one thing, the other thing, and the space between them.

Life then propagates and differentiates through the universe, and will, I suspect, ultimately return to merge back together to become The One, Unity. 3 to 1

Goofy I know, but I like contemplating Creation extending out, then returning to Source.
 
#75
I wouldn't want to frame the terms too literally, nor do I imagine it to be a literal physical transfer....
Sure, I didn't think you meant "take a hard left at Zeta Reticuli."

... It raises the possibility that here is the foreign land where we are strangers, a distant outpost in the psychic firmament, and we have to travel great distances to return home. What that distance represents is anyone's guess.
Yeah, like Bob Dylan said: "“I was born very far from where I'm supposed to be, and so I'm on my way home.”

I like ideas that aren't completely dualistic and transcendent and have some sort of link to time-space..... but, as you say, it's all speculation. I mean, if you take a holistic and organismic view where self-organising wholes are made up of, and embedded in, other self organising wholes sending information back and forth through various field phenomena, then we could potentially have been deposited here via panspermia and have to make our way back to our galactic/planetary field of origin after breaking our incarnate link with the material.

But the inescapably non-local elements of NDEs make me think that a transcendent dimension outside of space-time is the most likely 'destination'.

Perhaps the sense of travel is merely the whoosh of being sucked out into the ocean of boundless consciousness. :)
 
#76
thx for this. so we have the personal spiritual journey thing going on then we add this collective thought form thing (i.e. we are manifesting reality on an individual level and on a group level) and I think we might be nudging a little closer to understanding the experience.
So in an NDE we're moving into some kind of Jungian archetypal realm, entering a morphic resonance style field of collective human consciousness? Wow, I like it. Reincarnation and our personal spiritual journeys could then be seen as the individual contributing to the evolution of the larger collective human organism's consciousness field.... or maybe the field of our planet.... or solar system, even. Then you could look at the shamanic experience of contacting animal archetypes as two self organising sub-fields within the collective planetary field exchanging information. This is fully scalable, ie. humanity is nested within the planetary field, which in turn is nested within the solar system's field, and on and on and on.

It's holistic, evolutionary, process orientated and organismic in it's view..... I think this is beautiful!

Ok, calm down. :)
 
#77
let me be kinda blunt (as if you'd expect anything else) -- prove it!

maybe Jeff Long is wrong and light and love isn't 90% when it comes to NDEs, but he's offered the best evidence we have. if he's way off someone should step up and prove it.
Absolutely! This is the reason I love Dr. Satori's idea to compile worldwide stories. How else might one go about proving that? Does some of the Hollywood dystopia fascination have the answer, I wonder.

Could there be a parallel between the number of good dreams vs bad? Might that be related? Good drug trips vs bad?

One thing I find so interesting is there seems to be a direct parallel between the local culture (in this case California) and how they are dealing with reality (in this case badly). California most definitely leads the entire world in the 'love and light' angle, not just in NDEs but it all things 'cutting edge paranormal'. And, they also leaders the Western world right now in homelessness, poverty, crisis, etc. Even going as far as 'totalitarian' norms like forced state schooling and forced vaccinations, 'progressive' gun laws, etc.

Might these divergent aspects be related somehow? And, how?
 
#78
Excellent interview with a wonderful woman and scientist - thank you Alex and Penny

As you know Alex I have always argued that NDE experiences and ultimately the afterlife itself are amenable to scientific investigation.
The only reason they are not investigated scientifically today is the overwhelming materialist bias in the scientific community in these times.
Obviously as Penny says this is shifting gradually and that shift is part of the development or evolution of human consciousness and culture.

Couple of things
Re Alex's question - in my opinion 'light & love' is the foundation state or condition of what we ultimately are. But when we die we do not necessarily return to what we ultimately are. We move or transition into the afterlife realm, which in my opinion is part of the total Earth realm and the human experience. Death and the afterlife is not the end of the human experience. What we ultimately are lies beyond both the physical realm and the afterlife realm.

All human experience, in this physical world and in the afterlife, is subjective; meaning all human experience is interpretational and thus to some extent self generated. I am not saying there is no external world or no other people or that everything is a figment of our imagination; I mean that what we experience of the physical world and the afterlife world and of other people or souls is always subjective and interpretational. One man sees muck; another man sees fertile earth.

Our own personal psycho-emotional and experiential state determines how we see and experience the objective world and others.

Also when an evil person dies they are not necessarily transformed into a being of light & love just by dying.
Their evil personal nature transitions into the afterlife realm and lives on there.

So all of that is said to suggest why some people might have an unpleasant NDE experience. Some people may have inner fears or guilt that lead them to interpret the experience negatively or fearfully; and some may just be evil and they transition to a lower level of the afterlife realm where there are others like them who may deceive and torment them.

I suggest this because it is in line with most of the testimony of the spiritualist and esoteric traditions of the West and the East.
They all speak of the reality both of light & love and of evil souls or demons.
 
#79
Another small point re what Alex said about the biological component in NDEs
Death is the transition from the biological realm into the afterlife realm and so long as that process is not completed there is necessarily a biological component in the experience.
In those who relate NDEs the death process did not complete. For one reason or another they only went part of the way and came back to biological life.
In these times medical intervention is a major factor in the number of people not completing the death process and returning to biological life with memories of an NDE.
The medical system does everything it can to stop people dying; sometimes inappropriately as Penny related.
So we should expect there to be more NDEs in modern times than in earlier times when medical interventions were less successful at halting the dying process.
 
#80
Another small point re what Alex said about the biological component in NDEs
Death is the transition from the biological realm into the afterlife realm and so long as that process is not completed there is necessarily a biological component in the experience.
In those who relate NDEs the death process did not complete. For one reason or another they only went part of the way and came back to biological life.
In these times medical intervention is a major factor in the number of people not completing the death process and returning to biological life with memories of an NDE.
The medical system does everything it can to stop people dying; sometimes inappropriately as Penny related.
So we should expect there to be more NDEs in modern times than in earlier times when medical interventions were less successful at halting the dying process.
Im still not understanding the point you are referencing and which is being discussed here. Like you said, if you bring more people back to life after they've been dead, youre going to get more NDE reports. I don't see what's challenging about this. But there's a lot of smart people here, so Im probably just not understanding what is particularly intriguing about it. If technology increases, you are able to resuscitate more people, and this leads to more people having NDEs. But even if NDE's were actually equally frequent throughout different periods of history, we wouldn't know because we lacked the proper platforms with which to spread, share, and document these stories.
 
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