Dr. Rupert Sheldrake Brings Science to Spiritual Practices |376|

The takeaway point as I heard it, was Rupert Sheldrake believes his culture offered a spiritual practice he understood and valued. He arrived at this via other traditions. People of Rupert's background often value eastern religions, which they see as more authentic, or humane or whatever. Sheldrake seems to have left that route for more familiar territory. To dissect his reasons because they don't match our own seems petty.

It's impossible to imagine him thinking anyone is born "totally depraved" so he seems to have avoided any Calvinist influences.
 
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Here are the practices he discusses in his book:
Meditation
Gratitude
Connecting with nature
Relating to plants
Rituals
Singing and chanting
Pilgrimage and holy places.​

Wildlife photography is hugely, massively, spiritual. It puts you in tune with other beings, physical and non-physical. It develops your intuition. Primitive hunters experienced this millennia before materialist scientists destroyed spirituality and atheists began trying to re-invent religion.

See 23:51.
 
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...so that lots of different beliefs have something to show for themselves ...but none of them can be considered THE right one, objectively?

Correct.

The One Ultimate Truth does exist.

The fact that you can't objectively prove a certain one does not negate this.

The fact that some people believe different ones does not negate this.

Consider this Thesis: God gave you the faculty of Reason to sort out which Truth makes sense for you.

Why is that not enough for you? Why does it irritate you so much?
 
Correct.

The One Ultimate Truth does exist.

The fact that you can't objectively prove a certain one does not negate this.

The fact that some people believe different ones does not negate this.

Consider this Thesis: God gave you the faculty of Reason to sort out which Truth makes sense for you.

Why is that not enough for you? Why does it irritate you so much?

I'm sorry but what you wrote does not even begin to solve the problem:

1) "To sort out which Truth makes sense for you" is obviously not at all a guarantee that one's opinion will actually be the One Ultimate Truth, just the one each individual person happens to believe in, so in what way would that take each of us to the ACTUAL Ultimate Truth??

2) if this God you postulate gave everyone the faculty of Reason how come different people come to very different conclusions as to the nature of the Ultimate Truth? I hope you don't mean that those who do not come to the same conclusion as you are to be blamed for not using Reason well (because, obviously, they could be saying exactly the same about you)

etc etc.

But frankly I can tell this conversation with you is going to lead nowhere so I'm not going to spend any more time on it, don't bother answering.
 
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It seems to me that more evolved members in the afterlife or Spirit world are trying to guide those of us on Earth who matter to them toward themselves who exist in that, "better place." And humankind, at least the wiser ones of us see the merit in this. Jesus mentions, "The Father and I are one." It follows then that those instructions he gave us which are contained in the mere 250 or so pages of the four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are sufficient for our Salvation, ie.reunification with Father Spirit and the end of earthly misery for us. But it takes a measure of wisdom to realize/conclude one IS in misery. When I was young and poor I thought, "If only I had money, then I'd be happy." Now at last I do have money, not multi millions but more than sufficient... yet I remain miserable. More money, even hundreds of millions would not make a difference. Least of all would giving marriage yet another try make a difference. I've heard from people who have spent a temporary spell in the bliss on, "the other side." That is my only goal now. To be comfortable among the citizenry there one needs to have evolved into a certain character. Found there are the pacifistic, compassionate, selfless and generous ones.
 
... being spiritual does not come from the logical analytical part of the mind. It comes from the intuitive empathic part of the mind.


Analytical thinking blocks intuitive thinking and vice versa.

https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-11/humans-cant-be-empathetic-and-logical-same-time
Humans Can't Be Empathetic And Logical At The Same Time
Brain scans find that the two modes are mutually exclusive.

What spiritual practices are best?

Read inspirational books. It is a pleasant and easy way to shift your consciousness from your analytical/logical mind to your intuitive/empathic mind.

Here are some examples:

Non fiction:
https://www.loyolapress.com/authors/joan-wester-anderson

Fiction
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Girzone
 
We live in a possibly infinite universe and 1 or 2 books can explain that? Christianity teaches outward worship of "christ" nah not for me
 
Sheldrake who I admire who seemingly takes the bible literally
I didn't get any of that. Biblical inerrancy, the idea that every word in the bible is equal to the next devoid of context and history, is completely outside most mainstream Christianity. Sheldrake gave no impression he believed that. As he said, young earth creationists of the American kind are almost unknown in Britain.

Most of this goes back to the error (heresy in church speak) of assuming the world and all it contains is evil. Not sometimes, not some people or some things, but everything you see, hear and think is the stuff of rot and corruption. Saints and sinners are a category error, it's evil "all the way down" . Sheldrake has spent most of his career contemplating the marvels of nature, and it would be extraordinary if he thought its mechanisms and outcomes were wicked. He seems to be kind, well intentioned and open minded individual who has taken a heap of shit for persisting with those virtues, including being stabbed on stage for espousing them. Framing him with things he does not accept are true is no different from materialists doing the same.
 
What spiritual practices are best?

Watch videos on the internet about the personal experiences of other people such as NDEs, precognition, syncronicities, afterdeath communication, a medium giving a public demonstration etc. If it makes you feel uplifted and inspired, or produces feelings of connectedness and goodwill, it is spiritual.
 
I think you misunderstood my post. :)

Would you be so kind as to help me understand it? :)

You wrote: "I didn't hear him say anything remotely like "Christian ritual works experientially for me therefore the Christian belief structure is true".
Initially it must have been the other way round, ie he thought: "The Christian belief structure is true for me therefore Christian ritual works". But the two things obviously are intimately interconnected. In other words, it cannot be a coincidence that Christian ritual works for him and he also happens to believe that the Christian belief structure is true. Do you think, for example, that he would get the same effects he described in the interview by going on a sacred pilgrimage to Mecca, the place of birth of Mohammed, who does not play any role whatsoever in the Christian belief system? Or by performing a Voodoo ritual?

I think Sheldrake definitely implied that the two things (belief system and rituals) are interconnected - he was drawn back to the rituals of his tradition when he realised he did not endorse the Buddhist and Hindu belief structure:

"So, I live in India for about seven years, partly because I was so intrigued by oriental philosophy, and the last thing I expected was being drawn back towards a Christian path, I thought I’d left that far behind me. But the longer I was in India, the more I realized that a great deal about my own nature and being was shaped by my Christian background.

For example, I had a conversation with one of my Hindu colleagues, this was in the evening after work and he said, “Why do you do what you do?” and I said, “Well, I want to help poor farmers and I want to help poor people lead a better life by improving cropping systems and breeding better crops,” and I said, “What about you?” He said, “For me it’s a job, it’s a good job.” I said, “But what about helping people?” He said, “If people are poor, that is their problem, it is their karma, that is from their previous life. That is not your problem. Your problem is to look after your own spiritual development,” he said.

Then, I realized so much of Southern Buddhism, Theravada Buddhism and Hinduism is about following your spiritual path that basically leads to vertical takeoff for those who follow it. The rest of the world is a hopeless place with waves of reincarnation and samsara and karmic bondage, things are basically getting worse, according to their world view and will continue to do so, and the only thing an individual can do is get off."


Of course, he also said:

"if there’s a consciousness underlying nature and underlying the universe, which is, I think, shared by all religious traditions,"
but this means very little since it then leads to profoundly incompatible belief systems, from Animism (which sees the universe as populated by innumerable spirits) to Christianity (according to which we are the creatures of an omnipotent consciousness who dearly loves us, although it is still punishing the whole of mankind for Adam and Eve's original sin etc) or, according to Buddhism (see the First Noble Truth), has given rise to a "hopeless place with waves of reincarnation and samsara and karmic bondage, things are basically getting worse, according to their world view and will continue to do so, and the only thing an individual can do is get off".

So, all religions and spiritual beliefs are most definitely not saying the same thing, even if many people (and of course their good intentions are very endearing, but their arguments are not convincing) desperately wish to find a minimum common denominator for all of them.

Hence, believing in one religion and yet following other religions'/schools of thought's spiritual practices (nowadays there are even atheists' ceremonies and rituals!) would seem improbable to say the least...and if one did so thinking that "it doesn't matter, it's all the same thing" this would suggest that their effects are not derived from the "Source of Truth" these spiritual practises refer to, but are somehow produced by the state of mind of the person performing them.

Bottom line, I think these are the possibilities:

1) there is only one belief system that has the Ultimate Truth (I see there are many Christians in this Forum who will no doubt say it's Christianity); obviously its ritual works because it addresses its "Source of Truth" and hence the rituals of other religions etc cannot work (so any reports to the contrary are delusions or lies)

2) Since rituals referring to mutually contradictory beliefs work (according to the people who perform them), all these beliefs must be right - which is logically impossible

3) Whatever is behind reality (a single God?? Many spirits, some of whom are tricksters?) deliberately perform(s) "miracles"/make people feel ecstatically good etc, even if they perform the rituals of a religion which has nothing to do with the Truth (say, Scientology - or maybe there's a scientologist here who can correct me if I'm wrong :)), just to confuse mankind (which would be more understandable if there was more than one God, unless he enjoys playing with humans).

4) none of the above is the case, it's all in our minds - as long as we believe in something 'spiritual', no matter if it's true or not, we feel uplifted and some even experience (bring about??) what is commonly referred to as 'miracles'.

(Feel free to add possibilities to this list.)

So, I would have liked Rupert Sheldrake to tell us which of these scenarios is the one that he considers most likely, given that spiritual practices appear to work for believers in wildly different metaphysics. And I'm sorry, it's not true that all religions/belief systems are about the same Ultimate Truth - Sheldrake recognised it himself, by explicitly saying that his world view is very different from that of Buddhism etc. I understand that he wanted to be ecumenical and respectful but I prefer to call a spade a spade :)
 
I think if a person's relationship with the Creator is such as to cause him or her to strive for peace and a love of all of the Creator's creatures and the creation itself, in another word, the Earth, then nothing else really matters much. In doing so you may notice the lines in the palms of your hands suddenly indicating permanently the free flow of Chi energy; the reward is total freedom from any fear of life, you are aware now of your connection and immortality.
 
In doing so you may notice the lines in the palms of your hands suddenly indicating permanently the free flow of Chi energy; the reward is total freedom from any fear of life, you are aware now of your connection and immortality.
Given the formation of the hand with musculature and soft tissue, the palm must fold somewhere. Why would those folds indicate anything that would not be revealed by a close examination of the navel or anus? What's the difference between palm reading and phrenology?
 
It might have more to do with the several return visits I've had over the last few months (for various reasons). I always convince myself that church is a community of good/god loving souls who are interested in the highest truths... only to have my illusions shattered by cultish elements and mind-numbing scripture :)

I though you raised some interesting points here with Rupert. Exactly why he needs Christianity as a basis of spiritual/religious thought is not something I understand. I know of others who have taken up Christianity later in life, and it has always seemed like an abdication to a tarnished tradition for reasons that seem to me to be incomprehensible.

But then it depends on what your starting point is and what you want out of your allegiance. Rupert articulated a completely sound rationale for his affection for the faith. I don't share his reasoning, but then my starting point is different and my needs are different.

Christianity is bedevilled by the claim that what is fundamentally mythic played out uniquely in the person of Jesus in the material dimension we know as history (Christianity is fundamentally materialistic precisely because it anchors its primary claim to history). That breaks the mythic cycle and was intended to reset the cycle with the Church in control. There is no conclusive proof there was an historic Jesus, and even if we give the benefit of the doubt to believers, it remains certain that whoever that person was, he cannot be the character portrayed in the Gospels - which are pure mythic fiction.

If you accept 'Christ' as a mythic reality (more potent than any historic one) you don't need the Christian narrative, because there are far better ones. If you think the mythic Christ had a unique historic appearance you have a problem if you don't plainly say so - because it has to reset the mythic dimension (myth entering history in such a primal way is a game changer). Rupert does seem to dance between either position - and that is frustrating if you want a plainly reasoned position from a fine scientific mind. But maybe Rupert has his needs met by his position and he has not gone into the depth we want him to go to satisfy our needs.

Rupert does not resile from his primary mission, which is impeccably reasonable. He is right to point out that experiment and experience come from the same root, but he is maybe remiss in failing to note that 'science' is essentially knowledge - knowledge gained empirically really. Mysticism and magic are, by extension, also science. The difference between material science and spiritual science is essentially a matter of what assumptions are made about the nature of the reality being explored.

It is worthwhile asserting that the great scientific advances have not come from materialistic scientists, but the deeply religious or mystically inclined. The mystic examining the nature of material reality is no less that the mystic examining the nature of existential reality. The difference between 'science' as we presently conceive it and mystical/magical inquiry is entirely cultural and political - as well as the extent to which materialist dogma dominates the discourse.

Rupert is impeccably reasonable, and persists with a calm and penetrating intelligence to gently lead folk into experimentation that leads to experience. I don't recognise Rupert's target audience because I have been a lifelong experiencer, and hence have never needed to be persuaded there are benefits from spiritual practices that need not be framed in any metaphysical manner. I have shared this show with friends who already know the value of spiritual insight, but who need the comfort of scientific respectability. That is they have already strayed to the 'other side' but need reassurance.

I understand taxing Rupert on the foundations of his faith. I found his explanations not so much evasive as elegantly slippery - not as an act of avoidance, but a response from somebody who has found something that meets his needs, but remains, as yet, beyond the full embrace of his intellect. That's okay.

It is necessary to deconstruct Christianity until we are done with it, or done with trying. I think we all begin different places and end different places. I have spent now decades dissecting the corpse of my long dead faith to understand why I feel betrayed by it, mislead and abused by it. It has been a necessary autopsy to assuage a sense of how my natively deep spirituality was distorted and diverted.

I finally understood that other people's stories could only point to how I might address my own needs. They could never fulfil or satisfy them.
 
Phrenology Gabriel, from what I can gather is the study of a person's skull shape to try to determine character but this practice seems to have been discredited now. Palmistry is probably also comprised mainly of bs. But... I was once reading a bit about it. Someone wrote that a palm line known as, "The Girdle of Venus", if showing in the subject's hand blocks the free flow of Chi energy as it runs through the hand and out the fingers. I looked at my own palms and sure enough, there was this G of V blockage in both of my palms. I had been living in a state of disharmony with Creation. This explained my occasional bouts of paranoia with life, not yet being aware of any Creator or any other life than the one I was living. But convincing near death experience reports and personal experiences gradually planted a seed of hope in me that life could be continuous, a hope that finally became a conviction.
Remembering what I had read about palmistry and taking another look at my palms years later, prominent long lines now existed in both hands which crossed right through the remnants of the U shaped Girdle of Venus lines. You may draw what you like from this story but as for me, I'm more content with and no longer fearful of the course of life.
 
I always begin by trying to reason why an emperor such as Constantine, who's army means everything to him would want to adopt the Christian philosophy
he didn't. he was Roman to the end. enslaved all his people in serfdom... horrible slavery where you don't even own yr children.
 
Rupert articulated a completely sound rationale for his affection for the faith. I don't share his reasoning, but then my starting point is different and my needs are different.
I must disagree. Rupert implies his starting point is the same as yrs. he's rational, reasonable and a man of science... he's just fallen under the coltish spell that Christianity (or any religion) can weave.
 
The problem is if you don't respect Rupert's conclusions regarding his Christian beliefs, why give his theory of morphic resonance any credence? Or indeed any of his other hypotheses and speculations? I see no reason to think his take on religion is flawed and sentimental but his approach to biological behaviour is ground-breaking science. Most people seem to Sheldrake's ideas are complete twaddle, and his Christianity is made of the same fluff. The fact people on this board believe his theories hold up to scrutiny does not mean the rest of the world agrees.

I haven't read his latest book but it sounds consistent with his other theories. They do not undermine or contradict one another. At times this board reads like social media where people begin their introduction to any subject with "I'm an atheist.", as though that tells the reader everything else they need to know about them. Except here it's "I believe in psi.." therefore anything from alien crop circles to 9/11 truthers carry overwhelming likelihood in their wake. The only reason I mentioned my metaphysical beliefs was because Christianity was continually held up as a synonym for reactionary ignorance. It's possible to believe all manner of stuff and be an authentic and practicing Christian, and Rupert Sheldrake clearly does.

People should be judged on their contribution to the debates, not stigmatised because their metaphysics aren't on message.
 
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