Dr. Stephen Braude – your memories aren’t in your brain|318|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, May 31, 2016.

  1. steve001

    steve001 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    2,053
    Well ain't that rich.
     
  2. Stephen Wright

    Stephen Wright New

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2014
    Messages:
    898
    I think an intellectual "skeptic" label must be grounded to a topic. Other than that - a skeptic is just a judgement regarding a personally trait. For myself, I am skeptical of paranormal claims. On the other hand I have warranted belief that Braude is right about the currently evolving conceptualization of memory as a process. It is simply not measurable in terms of physical units.

    What is the crazy part - is that other units of measures used in delineating reality - are not accepted as equal complimentary variables. Skepticism of information science because it is "beyond" or additive to physical theory is illogical. How are we to model the process of memory, without the units of measure for meaning and communication being the basic variables?
     
    Sciborg_S_Patel likes this.
  3. Arouet

    Arouet Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2013
    Messages:
    3,222
    I think you are using skepticsm here in a different manner: that of indicating doubt. That's not the way I'm using it: which is more that of a methodological approach to the evaluation of claims. In the sense that I am using it it is subject neutral and independent of one's conclusions, or whether one agrees or disagrees with the proposition.

    In other words, you can apply a sceptical analysis to information science and conclude that information science is sound.

    I understand that some people attempt to load the term skeptic with certain baggage. That's not how I use it. I'm not sure what personality trait you are referring to but the definition I presented is idenpendent of personality.

    As for information theory, I've been slowly learning about it, but I haven't yet read any materials that are critical of it so I'm not keyed into the debate you as referring to. As I think you know, I'm quite partial to the importance of information and the role it plays. Personally, I see it as different sides of the same coin as physics, basically describing different properties of the same stuff that is the subject of physics. I see the two sciences as complementary, not as contradictory though I admit I still have a lot to learn about it so my views may change as I delve deeper into it. My views on this are still at the preliminary stage. Just giving you a sense of where I'm presently leaning on this issue at this time. I have no idea what others think of my position, I don't think I've read anyone else present my view, it's something I've put together from my various readings. I have no idea whether anyone else sees it the same way. Like I said, I leave a lot of room for development of my views on this.
     
    Stephen Wright likes this.
  4. Well what expertise do you have? In science or philosophy?

    Do you know lots of magic tricks that frauds might use?

    You say critical thinking - do you feel confident you could pass an intro logic course? Take a practice LSAT and score really high? Do some math proofs?
     
    Ian Gordon, Trancestate and K9! like this.
  5. Excellent point.

    Bitbol is an Idealist, skeptical of materialism which he argues outruns our empirical knowledge.

    Lanier calls himself a kind of minimal dualist, as he skeptical of computationalism.

    Feser is a Catholic Thomist philosopher, skeptical of naturalism's brute fact explanations.

    As an atheist Chomsky is skeptical of God but he's also skeptical of mechanistic explanation and certainty about the nature of matter.

    Tallis is also an atheist but skeptical of materialist explanations in neuroscience.

    Braude is (last I heard) a Neutral Monist skeptical of memories being stored in the brain as well as mechanistic explanations (see A Defense of Folk Psychology from Crimes of Reason). He's also somewhat skeptical of post-mortem survival.

    And so on....the point being that the attempt to elide skepticism and naturalism together is nothing more than a marketing campaign.
     
    Bucky, Ian Gordon, Szechuan and 3 others like this.
  6. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    4,226
    The trouble is that if you follow that idea to its logical conclusion, you don't believe anything.

    For example, if someone comes along and tells you that the Higgs Boson has finally been discovered, do you tell him that you want evidence not stories? You probably express trust that all the evidence has been weighed correctly and so you believe what you have been told. If someone points out that the LHC cost about $13 Billion, so they had to find something otherwise their arses would be on the line, you probably dismiss that line of reasoning in one way or another.

    I think there is a lot of evidence that people do encounter experiences that are really hard to explain, and the evidence chain is much shorter than the evidence for the Higgs Boson (which incidentally, is only supposed to exist for 10^(-25) of a second!), and yet I suspect you will accept a mere story about its discovery!

    Davis
     
    Sciborg_S_Patel likes this.
  7. Typoz

    Typoz Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2013
    Messages:
    2,404
    The Higgs Boson is a somewhat unusual topic. Most of science starts with some observation, and then tries to devise a theory to explain the observation. The Higgs was the reverse of that process. It started with a theory, and the task then was to devise some observations to explain the theory.

    That may sound like the same activity, but in many way it leaves the Higgs in a very weak position, as just about any observation could be chosen as satisfying the requirements. Just because some particular data was chosen, doesn't really add any weight to the story. What if some new theory comes along where the Higgs particle was no longer required, what would happen to those observations? Would they represent an obstacle in the way of the new theory, or would they be quietly dismissed as mere random noise?
     
  8. Stephen Wright

    Stephen Wright New

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2014
    Messages:
    898
    Science work has two distinct processes. Collecting measurable data in a way that it can reveal natural patterns. Analyzing the data and find meaningful relations in the patterns.

    I admire and respect the unsung folks who do the data collection! The newsworthy credit goes to folks doing the second and their work permits a lot of noise in the channel, as to the reliability of the conclusions. The case is - as you say Typoz - the math pointed to a probable data point, before a database was created. I am not skeptical that there is a real natural structure discovered at 125 – 127 GeV Higgs mass. I am skeptical that the current standard model correctly understands this particle as currently defined (whatever a particle is in physical theory).

    My personal curiosity is pointed at - why we can feel so sure about math analysis being trustworthy - without understanding how maths are so effective in science. I think there is a reason for math being direct knowledge of reality and I am not skeptical about the reality of math objects being a subset of informational objects. (D. Gillies)
    http://philpapers.org/rec/GILIRA-2

     
    K9! and Sciborg_S_Patel like this.
  9. Ah, missed this post.

    So inquiries of self-identified skeptics' qualifications leads to being ignored...interesting...
     
    K9! likes this.
  10. Nice.

    I actually can appreciate a critic of research, but they shouldn't take (IMO likely fake) umbrage when the lens of skepticism is brought to focus on them. If someone is going to cast aspersion on the quality of parapsychology research one would think they might, at the least, be able to support a claim of having the minimal math requirements necessary for the work?

    Similarly with critical thinking or any other kind of claimed expertise.
     
    Obiwan and K9! like this.
  11. Alex

    Alex New

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2013
    Messages:
    2,558
    fascinating.
     
    Sciborg_S_Patel likes this.
  12. steve001

    steve001 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    2,053
    Look at it from this perspective. I don't want to believe something is true, I want to know something is true.

    Physicists don't relate stories they produce results. Nobody's arse would be on the line. No, they didn't have to find anything. I've seen many physicists working there, before the LHC became operational, say they would be just as pleased not to find found the Higgs particle because that it means the theory ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model ) is wrong, however the Higgs was discovered indicating physicists have a very good grasp of how this universe works.

    Having an multi-national team of physicists state with very high confidence something was discovered where theory predicted it should be has much more weight than one person's anecdote or even a thousand persons since all of those anecdotes will be different without any way to corroborate.
     
  13. steve001

    steve001 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    2,053
    The Standard model would have to be modified perhaps discarded, however that does not appear likely.
    Here's an article from wired magazine discussing why the Higgs is an important find. http://www.wired.com/2015/11/physicists-are-desperate-to-be-wrong-about-the-higgs-boson/

    Another discussing what the LHC and frankly all other colliders before it are actually for.
    http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2011/10/03/did-we-build-the-lhc-just-to-find-the-higgs/
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2016
  14. Not everyone accepts the Higgs discovery as a genuine shoring up of the Standard Model, or at the least they think it leaves many things unanswered:

    1) Quantum Realism, Chapter 1: The physical world as a virtual reality (more on why Whitworth says physics is a "hollow science" here.)

    2) Open Challenges of the Higgs Sector

    3) The $6 billion LHC Circus

     
    Stephen Wright, Ian Gordon and K9! like this.
  15. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    4,226
    There is also this interesting book:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Higgs-Fake-Particle-Physicists-Committee-ebook/dp/B00FOU0CXG

    The author seems very well informed about HEP, even though he isn't an insider, and he seems to make a good case that the LHC probably just sees noise and artefacts!

    His style is a bit abrasive, but he covers a lot of ground. One particular gem, is that the actual (supposed) particles live 10^(-25) of a second, and all that reach the detectors is electrons, photons (and maybe positrons, I can't remember offhand). The problem is that huge numbers of collisions are taking place simultaneously, so the statistics are awful - he estimates one particle in 10^12 is interesting! I have seen that figure challenged, but nobody gives a better figure.

    Anyway, the amount of raw data is so huge that it has to be filtered by electronics before it is stored! All of that leaves me with very little belief in the output of this vastly expensive experiment!

    David
     
    Sciborg_S_Patel likes this.
  16. Baccarat

    Baccarat New

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Messages:
    786
    There was a new article I read, about something along the lines of what David posted

    The article mentioned they possibly found something new, but remained skeptical because the statistics are awful and there are a lot of false alarms
     
  17. Baccarat

    Baccarat New

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Messages:
    786
    Are there any criticisms about the Higgs/LHC from a non electric universe paper?
     

Share This Page