Gnosticism - The world is a vampire, sent to drain? Secret destroyers hold you up to the flames?

I am not judging, but I find this both sad and amazing. Sure there is stupidity, but I just see that as part of the journey. Evolution in both senses. I personally see stupidity as a human trait, not really in nature? Could you give some examples of where you're seeing it in nature?
This has nothing to do with faith, as both Einstein and Feynman I think would both agree, one a atheist and one a believer in some form of God.

Sorry, this is going to sound very rude, but I don't have the time to write more, and I just know that this conversation will not lead us anywhere because it boils down to a question of personal perception...I just made a quick search with the key words "stupid design" (as opposed to intelligent), I'm sure you can find lots more. Anyway just look at the horrific pictures in the link below and you'll get my answer. To me a world that, even if it is in order to "evolve" (??), has to go through similar horrific mistakes cannot have been designed by a benevolent or omnipotent being (btw those two concepts are a contradiction in terms if we look at the reality of this world).

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=386
 
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I understand what you mean, it's ok with me.

All I'd say, is that even examples such as these make some kind of sense with my worldview. (Which is largely like Toms.)Once one comes to think that we are spiritual bodies having an experience on earth, or even is convinced, even if not totally, by the evidence for reincarnation, this type of tragedy is much easier to live with.

If Tom's worldview is largely correct, you must surely wonder at the intelligence required to fool us into believing it isn't so.

Enjoy your day. Think about the good things. :)
 
I'm humbly offering this as possible answers that make intuitive sense to me, backed by others. I feel quite content not fully knowing.

I think that we're here basically to learn lessons which are ultimately about love being the answer to everything. Who knows if it's the best way? But I'm very happy to put faith in the incredible intelligence that is in evidence all around us, that it must be good enough, even though it may seem tough for us at times.

OK, so your understanding is that the primary lesson taught by "the school of incarnation" is (to, and how to) love. I gather that this is Jim_Smith's understanding too, and manjit expressed that as his understanding of "the school of incarnation" view in his thread, Speculation on the Nature of Reality. It seems to be the generally-understood lesson.

I want to share something that challenges this understanding, but first, a warning: it is a foul confession to horrific torture, and those who don't want bad images in their minds might want to avoid clicking this link (and I've created this off-site link so people can choose to avoid exposing themselves to it rather than have it forced on them inline in this post). I've copied the text at this link out of the Sam Harris book which I read semi-recently - and it *is* text only, there are no pictures: Excerpt from The Moral Landscape.

Steve, assuming you read the confession at that link (and if not, you can probably guess at how bad it is), can you honestly interpret this appalling suffering as "a lesson on (how to) love"? Because I can't. I simply can't see how a child going through those merciless experiences for over a year contributes in any way to his or anybody else's spiritual growth, and I can't imagine how a good, all-powerful God could set up a "school" involving experiences of that nature.

So, is there anything that you can summarise/share from Tom's views/talk - or your own understanding - that could achieve the reconciliation of brutal torture such as this with lessons on (how to) love? And even if you find a way, can you not think of at least one more peaceful way in which a good, all-powerful God might instead have imparted that lesson?
 
I understand what you mean, it's ok with me.

All I'd say, is that even examples such as these make some kind of sense with my worldview. (Which is largely like Toms.)Once one comes to think that we are spiritual bodies having an experience on earth, or even is convinced, even if not totally, by the evidence for reincarnation, this type of tragedy is much easier to live with.

If Tom's worldview is largely correct, you must surely wonder at the intelligence required to fool us into believing it isn't so.

Enjoy your day. Think about the good things. :)

Well, yes, thinking about good things (such as the existence of many, many good people) is what keeps me going, so that I can find the motivation to do my bit to make this world less horrible, but it doesn't make me blind -ever- to all that's intrinsically wrong in this consensus reality, including also the fact that the limits in which I'm confined by my ignorance (which I resent) may be there because my so-called "purpose" may very well be that of being some kind of a toy for a vastly powerful being who is fooling me for reasons best known to him/itself. Intelligence was never a synonym of goodness, you know, and powerful tyrants keeping their subjects in ignorance and therefore in a condition of inferiority and subjugation have never been on the receiving end of my "wonder" and admiration.
 
I didn't want to, but did read the link that you provided, and can see how that horrendous type of experience would make you feel that God wouldn't/couldn't condone that. It must be the reason that people see the Devil existing.

I don't have the slightest idea how God would feel when he saw that happening, it would probably just be wishful thinking on my part, in this form I just can't know. If it exists then it might be necessary, however sick it may appear to be/is.

What I would say is that we are here to learn that this type of thing is extremely harmful for all involved, and the consequences ripple far beyond those people. If we have free will, then that hints that it is a direction that we choose without input from God. (I'm not sure about free will.) .

If the 'program' is free to run without interference, then it must be left to do so. The extremes of behaviour at both ends, will amaze/lift and disgust/sadden us in equal measure. Sitting here thinking about this, has made me realise that it is necessary. How bad is too bad? Where should God draw the line and 'interfere'? I don't think he can.

If it makes you feel better, there probably are consequences for such behaviour:

For the souls who commit horrible acts of violence against others and cross over unrepentant, the most horrific afterlife scenario awaits them. In this example, Jurgen Ziewe arrives in the afterlife of suicide bombers. These are people whose corrupted beliefs led them to commit horrible atrocities on earth, and yet clinging to the belief that their acts would be rewarded, remain indignant and unrepentant. Jurgen understandably describes this experience as “one of the most horrifying events I have ever witnessed during my long history of Out-of-Body travels and the whole of my life; a nightmare without parallel.”

“[I was transported] almost instantly to the edge of a region that looked like a dark, nineteenth-century industrial park with bleak buildings covering a vast area and large smoke stacks. But this is not what it really was. I saw dark, billowing smoke rising from the ground into a black, menacing sky. As far as my eyes could see I was faced with a place of menacing desolation. The ground was almost pitch-black with cracks appearing everywhere and porous rough rock strewn over the wide area as if spewed out by a volcano and then cooled down into black ice. The sky was covered by billowing clouds formed by the smoke rising from the earth, occasionally lit up by sharp angry flashes of lightning releasing ear-shattering thunder, which made the ground tremble. […]

[…] I finally discovered that the evil billowing smoke came from piles of slowly burning human bodies who were wriggling in agony. In the very first pile I encountered, these twisting, charred and convulsing bodies were stretching their hands and clamoring towards a person who was trapped right in the center of the pile, who himself reached towards the bleak sky, desperately praying for help. The person was surrounded by the very real thought forms of his victim and the representation of their pain. However hard he pleaded, his voice never reached past the heavy curtain of smoke that shielded and surrounded him like an impregnable bastion. I quickly noticed that this impenetrable layer was made of regret and the realization that the fate of his victims and their suffering could never ever be reversed or erased. It was a wall of absolute impossibility built from his victim’s pain and unbearable suffering and the overbearing realization that this was a deed that could never be undone. […]

Then I reached an area where I heard calls to prayer, but it was carried by a sad and lamenting note, unrecognizably distorted. I then noticed it came from people who had lost their faith, some cursing their god for not keeping his part of the bargain. Others defiantly and repentantly proclaimed their fanatical belief by yelling it at an unseen enemy who was barring their way into paradise. Above all a black impenetrable sky responded with red flashes of lightning and roaring thunder.

Then out of the gloom I saw a man approaching me. He did not look out of place in the sinister region. He wore what had once been a white gown but was now dirtied by the ashes. I could see in his face that he was a kind man and devoted to his faith. As he approached me his hands reached out. He told he how glad he was that somebody else had finally come to help in answer to his prayer and he praised God for showing such mercy. He explained to me that he was a helper and faced the awesome task to sort out this mess and rescue some of these poor misguided young people. He lamented that there were very few people brave enough to enter here and assist him in his insurmountable task.

He directed by attention towards another pile of human remains. I could see severed arms and legs, heads with their jaws missing and blood and burned cadavers everywhere. The acrid stench of burned human flesh was everywhere. Right in the middle of the pile was a man wriggling, trying to free himself from the mess, but however hard he tried he sank back into the pile without the possibility of escape. Every so often he would sound out calling for his God and pleading for mercy, but his prayer had no power. Instead, every time he uttered the name of his Lord he was confronted with the truth of his deed and how it was in opposition to what his religion had decreed. And now as soon as his prayer left his lips it was reeled back in almost instantly by the agony of his suffering victims which screamed back at him, and every time it did so he felt their pain and the consequences of his act. The image of a mother holding her mutilated child rising out of the pile and then sinking back again, a child clinging on to the dead body of its parents, the horror that consumed their whole being, a horse lying dying in the street, a young man staring in disbelief at his mangled body. All this played back in a feedback loop from which there was no apparent escape. It was an unending replay, made worse by the realization that there was nothing on Earth or under Heaven that could make this heinous crime undone.

Nothing in stronger than reality. My solemn friend in his tarnished robes began to see that it was beyond my powers to save these poor victims of their own action. […]

The man cast his head down and looked at the helpless pile of wriggling flesh. I felt sorry for this man and wished him with all my heart that he could find extra help.I looked at the miserable soul who was trapped in the pile of wriggling and smoldering limbs and felt a wave of sorrow and sincere compassion and then directed my love towards him. I was surprised by the light emanating from my hand and lighting the region. In the light I could see faces emerging from many more piles such as this. Lost anguished souls turning towards me with their hands outstretched, reaching for the light. That was all I could do, but I hoped with all my heart that in some way it would break the horrific loop and free these people, who in the end were victims themselves.

I walked through the vast killing field of misery, sending waves of light and hoping that through some mysterious way they would do some good and relieve some of this monstrous misery. While I was doing so I was praying inside my heart that people would learn and understand the key tenet of their religions, which is love and not hate.”

–Vistas of Infinity, Jurgen Ziewe, 2015



If such behaviour persists, I have read Tom Campbell say that such individuals may be kind of reprogrammed or wiped clean. Killed off :(. I have read about it, but I have also read that it is very rare to have to do that.
 
Well, yes, thinking about good things (such as the existence of many, many good people) is what keeps me going, so that I can find the motivation to do my bit to make this world less horrible, but it doesn't make me blind -ever- to all that's intrinsically wrong in this consensus reality, including also the fact that the limits in which I'm confined by my ignorance (which I resent) may be there because my so-called "purpose" may very well be that of being some kind of a toy for a vastly powerful being who is fooling me for reasons best known to him/itself. Intelligence was never a synonym of goodness, you know, and powerful tyrants keeping their subjects in ignorance and therefore in a condition of inferiority and subjugation have never been on the receiving end of my "wonder" and admiration.

I think that it's best to concentrate on all that's good and feel empathy for those for whom you feel may be caught up in "all that's intrinsically wrong in this consensus reality".

Let any negative feelings go, what good can they do. Think about that.
What possible good can they do?
 
I think that it's best to concentrate on all that's good and feel empathy for those for whom you feel may be caught up in "all that's intrinsically wrong in this consensus reality".

Let any negative feelings go, what good can they do. Think about that.
What possible good can they do?

They do a whole lot of good to me :-) "Protest and survive" as that old slogan went :-). Which reminds me of this song by a punk rock band I used to listen to in my youth, lol :-) - sounds almost like a Gnostic hymn!


The savage mutilation of the human race is set on course
Protest and survive, protest and survive
It's up to us to change that course
Protest and survive, protest and survive
Read more: Discharge - Protest And Survive Lyrics | MetroLyrics

This is how I feel, how I think. If I had to suppress my reaction to the evil and the injustice I see, I'd feel even more victimised - at least I'm giving a piece of my mind to the (spiritual) powers-that-be! They certainly deserve it for not intervening (and here I refer to your reply to Laird - I quote you : "I don't have the slightest idea how God would feel when he saw that happening"; "If the 'program' is free to run without interference, then it must be left to do so" - but how cruel and insensitive would such a God be, a God that won't intervene to rescue a child in that situation, just because his stupid "programme" has to run without interference? I for one would intervene, I would stop the whole b****y universe to rescue just one child (which I did, in a way, since I'm childless :-))! Once again, if God is not bad, he must be "good in a truly ALIEN way", a way which I will never understand and therefore condone. You give him the benefit of the doubt, I can't.
 
- I quote you : "I don't have the slightest idea how God would feel when he saw that happening"; "If the 'program' is free to run without interference, then it must be left to do so" - but how cruel and insensitive would such a God be,

My guess is that "You have to be cruel to be kind". They are all difficult lessons to learn.
 
My guess is that "You have to be cruel to be kind". They are all difficult lessons to learn.
.....said the submissive battered housewife :-). Sorry, I truly don't mean to be horrid to you, Steve, of all people. Lovely people like you make this world at least bearable for me....I just think you are too FAR too kind to 'God' or whatever 'alien' (in the sense that it's alien to me!) intelligence has designed this mysterious "programme".
 
They do a whole lot of good to me :) "Protest and survive" as that old slogan went :). Which reminds me of this song by a punk rock band I used to listen to in my youth, lol :) - sounds almost like a Gnostic hymn!

The savage mutilation of the human race is set on course
Protest and survive, protest and survive
It's up to us to change that course
Protest and survive, protest and survive.

Reminds me of this:

Letters to the Demiurge (Bolding is by the author, not me this time)

Since I was a child I have always been fascinated by religion, mythology, spirituality and apocrypha. Yet from a young age I had a problem with what I perceived as traditional religious teachings. I saw that there was an overemphasis on fear and subjugation. It didn't make sense to me that God, the true creative force, would be such an authoritarian and dictatorial presence. It seemed to me that if there was a creative sentience behind the visible universe it would wish to empower us rather than enslave us. Of course, as a young child I couldn't put these thoughts into cogent words - but I sensed these things intuitively. Perhaps I was an Outsider even then.

As I entered my teens and was better able to articulate my intuitions I began to pay closer attention to the literature and themes of Gnosticism and the mystery cults. Broadly speaking, the Gnostics believed that the realization of Gnosis (esoteric, intuitive and spiritual knowledge) was the true path to salvation from the brutality of the material world. They saw the material world as a creation of an intermediary entity -- the Demiurge -- rather than the work of the true Creator. In some Gnostic systems the Demiurge is seen as deeply flawed, in others as the expression of Evil. Such ideas seemed incendiary to me, and I began to read voraciously on anything that touched on similar themes. I cross-contextualized between fiction and non-fiction, looking for clues and insight. I began to realize that human beings did not need an intermediary between themselves and the divine. Indeed, the direct personal experience of the divine is what seemed to be fueling any serious explorations of the unseen realms.

At Amid Night Suns I try to show those who come here that I truly believe in the empowering, transformative power of art and storytelling. I try to put my money where my mouth is by consistently creating videos and writing posts that are exciting, intelligent, provocative and inspiring. It is my goal to remind people of the shape of freedom and joy and passion. I often use a dark or rebellious aesthetic to convey my message, as these are the true flavours of my soul. I live for art and insight. I live to gain knowledge. Although I try to present these explorations in a fun manner, make no mistake; I take the work that I do here very seriously. Dear Reader, never lose faith in the power and majesty of the human spirit. Together we have the power to overthrow our oppressors, to remind them we are not slaves, not playthings. We are Ragged Magi. And with one another's help we can become the shape of infinite things.
 
.I just think you are too FAR too kind to 'God' or whatever 'alien' (in the sense that it's alien to me!) intelligence has designed this mysterious "programme"

This isn't something that I have to work out, it simply 'is' for me.

And the submissive battered housewife has to learn to stop making excuses for the partner that's beating them, and stand up for themselves. Another hard lesson. :(:)
 
This isn't something that I have to work out, it simply 'is' for me.

And the submissive battered housewife has to learn to stop making excuses for the partner that's beating them, and stand up for themselves. Another hard lesson. :(:)
I was in fact comparing your attitude with that of the housewife...but you clearly didn't even get my message because you don't see yourself as being in that situation, fair enough and you're absolutely right, you feel this "is" for you and you accept it, horses for courses. Maybe I'll end up in that hell you described just because I don't accept it, but so be it! One more injustice would simply make me even more rebellious :-). Good luck taming me Demiurge!
 
.....said the submissive battered housewife :). Sorry, I truly don't mean to be horrid to you, Steve, of all people. Lovely people like you make this world at least bearable for me....I just think you are too FAR too kind to 'God' or whatever 'alien' (in the sense that it's alien to me!) intelligence has designed this mysterious "programme".
What if - we ourselves are each part of 'God' - and that this is our creation, not that of some alien? This distancing, separation of ourselves from things is on the one hand an understandable reaction, yet most of the worlds problems arise from separation of one sort or another. We have communities separated from communities, individual people separated from other people, this feeling of distancing and separation is both a cause and an effect, it goes around and around. I don't have a well-argued case to present, I only offer how I view things. For me the only way forward is to reduce the very concept of separation, and for me that means on all levels, nation to nation, community to community, person to person - and not least, person to God.
 
What if - we ourselves are each part of 'God' - and that this is our creation, not that of some alien? This distancing, separation of ourselves from things is on the one hand an understandable reaction, yet most of the worlds problems arise from separation of one sort or another. We have communities separated from communities, individual people separated from other people, this feeling of distancing and separation is both a cause and an effect, it goes around and around. I don't have a well-argued case to present, I only offer how I view things. For me the only way forward is to reduce the very concept of separation, and for me that means on all levels, nation to nation, community to community, person to person - and not least, person to God.
But to me that's another way of putting up with what is, this time by saying "it's us doing this" -no, somebody must have created a 'system" whereby we maybe all contribute (unwittingly!) to create this shared dream, I certainly did not design this system myself, so even if I'm making things worse in any way by being here as a "separate" entity I don't see how this can be "my fault"....I didn't choose to incarnate as a separate being - and of course if you insist I did (as new agers do), well, that's just another unfalsifiable assumption, which I respect but that's all, it doesn't explain to me at all why I would have chosen something that I completely resist and rebel against.
 
But to me that's another way of putting up with what is, this time by saying "it's us doing this" -no, somebody must have created a 'system" whereby we maybe all contribute (unwittingly!) to create this shared dream, I certainly did not design this system myself, so even if I'm making things worse in any way by being here as a "separate" entity I don't see how this can be "my fault"....I didn't choose to incarnate as a separate being - and of course if you insist I did (as new agers do), well, that's just another unfalsifiable assumption, which I respect but that's all, it doesn't explain to me at all why I would have chosen something that I completely resist and rebel against.
Mmm, yes, I see what you're saying. I think it is certainly not helpful to see it as "your fault" or "my fault", that just makes things more difficult. And I don't like to insist on anything, certainly not in areas like this, after all my own ideas change frequently enough, I don't have firm views from my own perspective, and even less so would I try to foist my ideas on anyone else.

But I do like to throw ideas into the mix, let them bounce around a bit, it's a way of moving further along, not by taking on any strong belief, but simply letting ideas churn around until something new emerges.
 
I didn't want to, but did read the link that you provided, and can see how that horrendous type of experience would make you feel that God wouldn't/couldn't condone that.

It's not so much that reading about the experience makes me feel that; I feel that way independently of whether or not those experiences even exist: it's a matter of reasonability to me that to be good means to care about others, which means not wanting them to suffer - and since God is good, then of course He doesn't condone unnecessary suffering.

It must be the reason that people see the Devil existing.

That and having personal encounters with him / demonic entities.

I don't have the slightest idea how God would feel when he saw that happening, it would probably just be wishful thinking on my part, in this form I just can't know.

Really? You believe in a good God, right? And if you, as a basically good person, but incomparable to God's goodness, are horrified by that experience, then would not God be orders of magnitude more horrified? Being good is correlated with feeling empathy for victims of suffering and torture, isn't it?

If it exists then it might be necessary, however sick it may appear to be/is.

That's a pretty shocking statement, to be honest. It's also a pretty vague one: why might this be necessary? How could you even think that such a thing could be "necessary", especially given an all-powerful deity? And, given that you do, how do you justify that possibility - what tangible reason do you have for believing that such horror might be necessary? I asked you in my last post if you could offer something from either your own understanding or from Tom's views/talks to reconcile brutal torture with teaching how to love - it looks like you've come up empty?

Isn't this a bit like promissory materialism? In both cases, there are rational grounds for believing that the proposition in question is false, whether that be that consciousness can be explained as an emergent phenomenon, or that there might exist a reason that makes suffering necessary despite a good God, yet believers in these propositions keep on believing in them despite that they cannot even offer an *example* of the *sort* of explanation/reason which might fit the bill.

I know it might seem that I'm being awfully hard on you, Steve: it's nothing personal, I just find it difficult to understand how this (to me, shocking) view could be justified.

What I would say is that we are here to learn that this type of thing is extremely harmful for all involved, and the consequences ripple far beyond those people.

Does the blindingly obvious need to be experienced? If it's "extremely harmful for all involved", then why teach this by enacting the very harm we are supposed to be learning to avoid because it is so harmful?

If we have free will, then that hints that it is a direction that we choose without input from God. (I'm not sure about free will.) .

If the 'program' is free to run without interference, then it must be left to do so. The extremes of behaviour at both ends, will amaze/lift and disgust/sadden us in equal measure. Sitting here thinking about this, has made me realise that it is necessary. How bad is too bad? Where should God draw the line and 'interfere'? I don't think he can.

OK, so let me ask you something: if you see some guy about to beat up on his girlfriend, and you intervene to stop him, has he lost his free will? I don't think so. Why, then, would he have lost his free will if it was God rather than you who intervened in that same scenario?

OK, but let's say you answered "Yes" to that question i.e. your position is that due to your intervention, the man lost his free will. What, then, about the free will of his victim? Her free will choice is undoubtedly not to be victimised: so, if neither you nor God intervene, then, by your reasoning, she has lost her free will. So, either way, somebody is going to lose his/her free will - surely then, that cannot be a consideration in whether or not (for you or for God) to intervene in cases of victimisation?

If it makes you feel better, there probably are consequences for such behaviour

No, it really doesn't make me feel better. It makes me feel worse. What's the point of learning a lesson from which you can never benefit? Great, they've learnt their lesson - suicide bombing is wrong - but what's the point of having learnt that lesson when they're stuck for eternity burning in a pit with their victims?
 
Hi Laird

I think that I should put down some more thoughts about how I see/define things before going any further, as many of my thoughts on subjects like these are not fixed. They're more like intuitions that make sense to me, and although I can sense frustration in your post, I can only go so far with my explanations. Remember these are only one individuals thoughts - nothing more. I feel sometimes that I am talking the talk, but I'm very far from walking the walk! Hardly anything I'm saying is my own, it is like a jigsaw puzzle that I've started to put together. Maybe it's designed so that even totally different pieces make the same picture? Maybe many different pictures are equally beautiful.

God - an intelligent entity with love at its core, maybe love's more than at its core , maybe it's all love. I don't think we understand love fully, far from it.
Humans - think of them/us like You see a bug making its way through some grass.
Our understanding as humans - like trying to teach a bug maths.
Maybe that's a being little unfair to the bug/us.
How God sees his creations - as we (most of us)see our children.
Should/shouldn't - Doesn't mean there will be judgement. No hard rules in general.
I'll use 'man/men' for all humankind.

Really? You believe in a good God, right? And if you, as a basically good person, but incomparable to God's goodness, are horrified by that experience, then would not God be orders of magnitude more horrified? Being good is correlated with feeling empathy for victims of suffering and torture, isn't it?

While I think God is all about love, our limited understanding of love/God may make us feel that God should react some way or other, but how can we truly know? If we truly feel that he's good, we should 'have faith'. It's judging the big picture without knowing all the facts. Its the old story about missing a flight that your desperate to catch, your so frustrated and disappointed until you hear on the news that the plane crashed!

That's a pretty shocking statement, to be honest. It's also a pretty vague one: why might this be necessary? How could you even think that such a thing could be "necessary", especially given an all-powerful deity? And, given that you do, how do you justify that possibility - what tangible reason do you have for believing that such horror might be necessary? I asked you in my last post if you could offer something from either your own understanding or from Tom's views/talks to reconcile brutal torture with teaching how to love - it looks like you've come up empty?

I should be more careful about the words I'm using, more careful about how I'm writing when people feel so strongly about things I may be commenting on. I said" if it exists it might be necessary ", I could be wrong, I just don't know? But what I know is that it exists. So what are we going to do about it?

Can we, should we really blame God? Say that my/Toms assertion about earth being a virtual reality that we reincarnate on, so as to 'grow', assuming that we have free will, or the illusion of free will is required for some reason (how this is accomplished is way too complicated for me)then it is surely our fault that such horrors exist. There are many people that say "We have lost our way, our connection to God". Maybe this is the case? Maybe God, seeing the horrors that men inflict on one another, is just as horrified as I/you are, but who am I (or you) to judge how he should react? How would you react?

The evidence of how men react to barbarity is surely not the best way that we might react? I'm guessing, but my guess would be that men's emotional reaction to this would include: anger,disgust, hatred, loathing, fear, etc but what would truly be needed to really make a change, would be love, compassion, understanding, etc. The perpetrator is very likely to have experienced very little of these throughout his life, and I just don't know about the victim. Maybe he was Hitler/a paedophile in his past life, but Jesus dying at the hands of man doesn't support this - I just don't know? I am very far from knowing all the answers, but all that I need to know, from my intuition and backed up by experience is that it's all about choices!

I have read some examples of people being in very traumatic situations and being told to forgive their attackers. One cop who was shot a few times and who was about to be 'finished off' by the perpetrator, got a voice telling him in no uncertain terms to say out loud 'I forgive you' to him. This seemed to throw the guy, and he didn't shoot, the cops life changed forever. I have read that some kids who are abused find a way to leave that reality elsewhere and somehow make it appear 'separate' from them. I would hope that's true, that the suffering that we see is somehow shielded in some way from the victim.

You asked me to 'offer something' from my own understanding(or Toms). I'll look for something by Tom, but my guess is that he wouldn't get too hung up on it. Eventually the lessons are learned, so that we know, really know, that this is not the way to be, that love is the only way. You say that lessons are 'blindingly obvious', but I disagree, they are hard learned!

This situation exists. We have to deal with it. We have to choose whether to make love driven choices or fear driven choices. Which brings me back to the bug! We are at the bug stage of our evolution. So guess which way we will often choose?

Don't worry about being hard on me, I'll withdraw if it's getting personal.;)

Does the blindingly obvious need to be experienced? If it's "extremely harmful for all involved", then why teach this by enacting the very harm we are supposed to be learning to avoid because it is so harmful?

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it doesn't. Surely God wouldn't want it that way. If 'he' does, if he likes it that way, then I would reject that side of god. But how can we, if our father has a trait that we dislike, he may gamble or drink excessively, should we no longer love him? Or can we say that I might have loved him 100% once, but now I'm only able to love him 70% - can we make such judgements? As soon as we do, I suggest that we find ourselves on a slippery slope.

This is why I think we are separated to find our own way, to eventually become love and when we are able to rejoin God, do so.

From On Love from The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran

" as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun,

So shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the earth.

Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto himself.

He threshes you to make you naked.

He sifts you to free you from your husks.

He grinds you to whiteness.

He kneads you until you are pliant;

And then he assigns you to his sacred fire, that you may become sacred bread for God's sacred feast.

All these things shall love do unto you that you may know the secrets of your heart, and in that knowledge become a fragment of Life's heart."


OK, so let me ask you something: if you see some guy about to beat up on his girlfriend, and you intervene to stop him, has he lost his free will? I don't think so. Why, then, would he have lost his free will if it was God rather than you who intervened in that same scenario?

I don't want to get into a discussion about free will, I'm not that clever. But when God interferes, I'm guessing it makes a big difference. Maybe it's designed so as he cant int I don't understand why.

No, it really doesn't make me feel better. It makes me feel worse. What's the point of learning a lesson from which you can never benefit? Great, they've learnt their lesson - suicide bombing is wrong - but what's the point of having learnt that lesson when they're stuck for eternity burning in a pit with their victims?

I don't believe that it's forever. I believe that God forgives misdeeds, or rather, lessons learned the hard way, it wouldn't be consistent with love if it were otherwise.
"The Prophet", like many other texts, say a lot of the same things, they're not my own, as I said at the beginning.

"Crime and Punishment
Then one of the judges of the city stood forth and said, “Speak to us of Crime and Punishment.”

And he answered saying:

It is when your spirit goes wandering upon the wind,

That you, alone and unguarded, commit a wrong unto others and therefore unto yourself.

And for that wrong committed must you knock and wait a while unheeded at the gate of the blessed."

I hope overall this makes things clearer, if not there's not much more I can say. I'll leave you with the final words from The Prophet.

“A little while, a moment of rest upon the wind, and another woman shall bear me.”
 
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While we're on the darker side of things, an NDE account which overlaps into this zone:

Thanks for posting that NDE,Typoz. It was very interesting, but I couldn't work out why 'Buddhist' featured. It reminded me of Jurgen Ziewe's description of things. How it appears that depression may still feature hugely when we pass. It is one of those questions that 'bother' me, well they don't really, but I still would like to know the answer. How much baggage do we transfer with us? How different are we on the other side?
 
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