Gordon White, Pieces of Eight: Part 2, Aleister Crowley, Opposite Day |333|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Nov 8, 2016.

  1. Alex

    Alex New

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    Gordon White, Pieces of Eight: Part 2, Aleister Crowley, Opposite Day |333|
    by Alex Tsakiris | Nov 9 | Spirituality

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    Gordon White wrestles looks at morality from a Magical perspective.
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    photo by: Skeptiko
    Gordon White’s new book Pieces of Eight: Chaos Magic Essays and Enchantments stirred up a lot of questions that I posed in part 1; now here are the answers:

    Alex Tsakiris: …for example, the evidence from the near death experience science that I’m so fond of because it gives us a pretty clean set of data to look at… I hear love and light being what it’s really about. I hear it being moralistic, and being hierarchical, and that materialism, even spiritual materialism of trying to get something out of an enchantment or a spell is really, at the very least, treading water. It’s not moving you towards this spiritual growth that ultimately it is what it’s all about. What do you make of that as a general idea?

    Gordon White: I think I know exactly what you mean… the question is philosophical in the human sense, which is, is morality an objective category of the universe like spin or something in physics?

    …Is morality an inherent category in the universe? And as a result, should that shape your actions in this life? Probably… but it’s an eternal question.
     
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  2. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    Today was maybe not the best day to post this important podcast - everyone is busy debating the Next President of the United States!

    Nevertheless, I am really looking forward to listening to this once I have calmed down a bit!

    David
     
  3. Far.From.Here

    Far.From.Here New

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    A couple of thoughts.

    First off I think if you are going to talk about religion in any meaningful way, then it doesn't really make much sense to look at the popular contemporary practice and say "All this is quite silly." It's a bit like tilting at windmills. It would be much more interesting to have someone on who can intelligently discuss a true Christian mystic like Jakob Böhme for instance. Dissect what he was about and how that touched more neatly on what is likely closer to the true nature of the part of "reality" that we are focusing on in this discussion. Most of us get it--Yahweh and Satan are human constructions invented partly to explain the universe and partly to "shape minds." Much more interesting is when Gordon speaks of the "devil", which I don't think he equates with Satan at all. I'm not sure, but I don't get the impression you are seeing the nuance there.

    It's no mystery that I don't buy into an objective morality. Right now I get the sense that the manifest reality as a whole (read: includes the "non-physical") has a structure, in fact it likely has a lot of structures. We see so many structures here in our apparent reality--the laws of physics and math, the cycles of the planets and solar system and on and on, that it makes perfect sense that the larger, mostly unseen, manifest reality must also have laws and structures. This physical reality appears to be an organic structure obeying some basic laws. Much like the human body is an organic structure obeying the laws of its DNA. Most of us don't have two heads and there is a reason for that. In the same way I think we experience morality here because it is an organic outgrowth of the particular laws of this reality. I guess in a way I have talked myself into the opposite camp because if we consider ideas like the existence of archetypes or Platonic forms or ideas like "as above, so below" then it would carry through that our idea of morality is likely the shadow of some idea that is more fully developed "down the line" as it were. So I guess I'm not so sure.

    I'm much more interested currently in the intersection of things like astrology, the tarot and the Kabbalistic tree of life. You could add the I Ching in there for some spice. Why do these tools appear to have some "vision" into the nature of reality?
     
  4. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Alex's question at the end of the podcast:

    Is morality real -- is it a fundamental part of our universe?
     
  5. Alex

    Alex New

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    really? most?

    NDE and mediumship data point toward an objective morality. more in ep. 333
     
  6. Far.From.Here

    Far.From.Here New

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    Well they point to an objective morality on "the next layer up." But this understanding could be Newtonian in its scope. The truth may be more quantum in scale. You see what I am saying? What is the true scope of our understanding if we are only seeing limited layers?

    I have to go back to the dream reality. I've been diligently recording my dreams again and they are so incredibly complex and "real." From an experiential viewpoint there is virtually no difference between the time I spend in a dream and the time I spend in this "physical" reality. If I perform some questionable act in a dream, I may wake up and ruminate on "what that means." But I don't get the same sense of "morality."

    We can't reject the possibility that this life is analogous to the dream. Just as many "wise men" have said exactly that--as the number of people who have experienced Christ Consciousness in an NDE. Are you saying the guys who say "life is almost exactly like a dream" are wrong and the guys saying "you gotta be good or you don't get heaven or higher consciousness or x-mas presents" are right?
     
  7. Far.From.Here

    Far.From.Here New

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    Well. I guess I mean a couple people on this forum who are worth talking to.
     
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  8. From the "There is no evil...?" thread....
    http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/there-is-no-evil.3158/
     
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  9. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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    Still listening but one thought on whether or not morality is objective... I'll appeal again to the concept of patterns and that pattern overlay is where subjectivity and objectivity intersect. Pattern is the substance of structures mental or physical. Morality is a series of patterns of behaviors and values that lead to a certain kind of stable structure (in the individual mind as well as in society) which empathetic beings find desirable (good). So the reason we struggle to call morality objective is because it is pattern overlay which requires the subjective creation of a pattern by the observer and not all observers will create the exact same pattern overlay.... however groups of observers with certain shared qualities (empathy, love, etc) will create more or less the same patterns. Religion is a tool to get people to create specific kinds of pattern overlay onto actions and motives. We can critique it and improve it, but it's obviously got some positive aspects to the mental and social structures it creates.

    If we draw a pentagram on a piece of paper, the collection of paper and ink molecules alone is not a pentagram - an observer who's been taught this shape is what makes it a pentagram. We can draw a V and one observer might call it a V. Another looking 90 degrees off might call it a "<" chevron. Same arrangement of material stuff, but the subjective overlay changes its identity and function.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2016
  10. Rod

    Rod Member

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    Alex Tsakiris: “…Is morality an inherent category in the universe? And as a result, should that shape your actions in this life? Probably… but it’s an eternal question.

    Why should it matter to you whether morality is an “inherent category of the universe”? Does it follow from the affirmative reply that it “should” shape your actions in this life”?

    Does the perception that Satan is God’s invention mean there is “no evil”?

    It is clear that society/the world is in the hands of despotic power and it appears to work; there appears to be no budging it. We are faced by the question: will it eventually prove unworkable? However, from this question arises another: But will this be because people consciously bring an end to its rule, or will it just stop working and break down? And a corollary of this is: Or both? Or is conscious will always present?

    Despotic power seems unending, i.e. it works against the moral, the good, and, yes, against nature (pollution). But millions of people have just voted for it in America. Leaving aside those who consciously enjoy the benefits of this despotism, the thought will have crossed the minds of the millions that “immorality works and we have to make the best use of it that we can,” but in their innocence their will to vote was mainly inspired by the pragmatic “he’ll bring back jobs by stopping imports from America’s rivals and so by making America great again, he’ll make our lives better.”

    In brief, the millions supported despotism consciously and unconsciously. At least with Hillary a chance of morality existed as long as the Bernie Sanders lobby put pressure on her, even though conservatism ensured that Sanders didn’t make it beyond the primaries. But with this tycoon from the underworld, an American version of Italy’s made-by-the-media Berlusconi, all we can expect is an era of extremes in double-talk and aggression against the rest of the world.

    Can morality work? Can it replace the apparently ubiquitous immorality that dominates our lives, despite our own morality? I am an optimist. But we have to work on it –it won’t just arrive pre-packed from God or from Nature.
     
  11. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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    ;;/?
     
  12. Mediochre

    Mediochre Member

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    Edited for spelling and clarity.

    Ok so here's the thing about what I keep hearing about people claiming that they see Jesus or whoever in NDE's and then turning around and claiming that means there's objective morality.

    Warning: craziness ahead

    I can induce shared dreams more or less at will, although not super precisely all the time, and I’ve done this dozens and dozens of times with my girlfriend. I learned how to "gamemaster" these dreams for her, setting up scenarios and whatnot. She can and does quite literally request the type of dream she'd like to have "some time" and I can provide that for her. And if I don't know exactly what she means, I can set the dream to create it's "map" or other things from her own mind, like a "read from file" function in a programming language which I can then manipulate. I also learned the ability to modify both my physical appearance and energy signature both in projections/shared dreams as well as a couple times while poltergeisting. And in these times where I was able to modify these things, energy signature being most significant here, My girlfriend was unable to tell it was me.

    She's not an amateur at this either, she can sense energy and do her own projection and has her own demonstrated ability with magic. Yet even she, who is relatively advanced or certainly intermediate skill level with magic was unable to tell that it was me. The person who knows me and by extension my energy signature best in the entire world was unable to tell it was me.

    So when I hear someone go "oh well I saw Jesus and he was emanating al this love and surely it must've really been Jesus." I'm more than a little skeptical. Given that these people more than likely do not know how to do half of what I can do let alone what my girlfriend has learned I doubt they'd even have a concept of what an energy signature is let alone know how to tell a real one from a forged one. I only know because I've spent more than 25 years training to know. Then on top of that seeing as how I know for a fact that I could go induce an "experience" with someone, dress myself up to look like their conception of Jesus, change my energy signature, emanate their concept of "love" and then tell them whatever I want knowing they're just going to believe it without question because "Jesus told me" It makes me question the validity of the claims hardcore.

    I know this skill because I've been developing abilities to fight nightmares in dreams since I was a kid and knowing how to change your energy signature in particular has a myriad of combative and non-combative uses. I'm also far from the only one who knows the crazy amount of uses there are for changing your energy signature. One of my favourite examples, and I say that as sarcastically as possible, is something I call "the mothers day incident" which happened to me at around 3am mothers day 2015 in which a creature locked me into a projection, disguised itself as one of my dead relatives, presumably messed with my mind to make me go along with what was a clearly strange situation, and then attacked me when it had a good opportunity.

    It bit my left hand, transformed, grabbed the back of my head with it's left hand, but by that point I was well aware things were clearly dangerous and I tore myself away from it ripping my left hand in half in the process. I managed to kill it with a "blade" of compressed energy which broke it's lock on the projection and let me out. to which I found that my left hand was physically paralysed, had zero circulation, and energy was just dumping into it hardcore from the environment from the pressure difference, so Type B Kruger effect. My hand took an entire week to heal, arguably longer because for a good month after the event I would still feel a slight buzzy tingling in the very center of my hand where it bit in the hardest. I also had type B scratches above and below my right eye from it's index and thumb "claws." The severity of the damage to my hand, even though none of that damage was visible, indicates if that damage had been done to my heart I would probably be dead right now with no visible signs of a cause. And it was in position to do that as well, all it had to do was swivel it's hips and ram it's right hand through my chest. I have little doubt that it would've had more than enough kinetic force for it's claws to pierce through or get between my ribs and destroy my heart. If that had happend there would be no Mediochre right now. But I got away from before it thought of doing that, tearing my hand apart in the process. Because if my choices are "possibly lose permanent use of my hand" or "possibly a fate worse than death" I'm going to tear my hand apart every single time.

    This isn't an isolated incident either, I've encounter a whole class of entities whose entire strategy is to shapeshift themselves into someone you are familiar with, change their energy to match, try to get close to you such as trying to hug you or whatever, then attack you when there's no way to get out of it. Seemingly banking on you being too scared to attempt to fight back. Here's the point I'm trying to make with this.

    We hear about NDE experiences because those people make it back. How many people do you think there are who don't make it back? How many people do you think are on their surgery bed, they see Jesus, believe it's totally Jesus because of shiny lights or whatever, and then "Jesus" phases back to it's real form and rips them apart? Much like a trapdoor spider or fish that cover themselves in silt and waits for something small to swim by.

    And then back in the operating room all they can really think is "well, the resuscitation didn't work." and leave it at that because they don't have any reason to think any different.

    My guess is there's quite a lot of people that this happens to.

    I know there's tons and tons of context missing here and it probably sounds utterly ridiculous. When I get time I'll try to clear as much up as possible.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2016
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  13. Far.From.Here

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    Your viewpoint is an outlier for sure and at times does resemble a comic book. On the outlier idea--I haven't seen even a handful (not even a small handful) of writers on the occult, lucid dreaming, the OBE, channeled material or mediumship who even remotely suggest that the non-physical is a fraction as malevolent as you portray it. Several of us here have had or do have OBEs and lucid dreams. Practitioners abound on different forums on the internet.

    We must be skeptical on this forum and I must say that at this point I feel like either:

    1. You are making this stuff up as a kind of long troll.
    2. You have a very serious entity attached to you and you need help. I would suggest doing real research on particular Peruvian shamans and after finding a suitable and genuine shaman take a two week ayahuasca trip. They can clear you of any such beings.
     
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  14. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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    So it is like this... that's what I was afraid of... lol

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Alex

    Alex New

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    yes. it suggests that the goal is spiritual development in this direction. so in the words of Charlie Sheen, "winning!"

    agreed. psychopaths have some natural advantages in ruling the material world. history seems to suggest that it's always been that way.

    IDK... one could argue the opposite in that the Clinton-Bush-Obama regime has a lotta clear ties to the dark side.
     
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  16. Mediochre

    Mediochre Member

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    This is precisely why I've never bothered to talk about my own experiences before. It's also why my girlfriend is so hesitant about wanting to join skeptiko. Both myself and her know just how unbelievably crazy it sounds even among other's in this circle. We're very self aware of that fact. It's humiliating but that's also what continues to drive me to develop things into something real and tangible that can be shown to and taught to others. Because I want to demystify all this religious drug induced hippy nonsense and actually get tangible results. Not like the shaman in the movie that Alex mentioned who lost to a piece of metal because his spirits clearly weren't good enough to do the job.

    Reading things off of the internet and then taking them at face value because "oh a shaman said it" or whatever isn't real research. My day in and day out grind trying to figure shit out, making hypothesis and testing them, refining what I learn, that's real research.

    I’m sorry but it honestly sounds like your comment is based on not liking what I'm saying and you don't want to debate it. You wanna sit there in your little echo chamber having everyone agree with you and then call yourself a scientist or skeptic. So you're just putting me down because you don't like that it's different from what you've heard. It's like the standard lightworker cults going “Oh I don't resonate with that you're just all darkhats” all over again. I came to Skeptiko because I had higher expectations for this community and Alex has certainly been one of the few I've talked to thus far to actually live up to those expectations which I commend him for.

    For example, what's your basis for thinking I have an entity attached to me? is it merely beause "bad things happened therefore entity" as you appear to be saying? I mean really, you feel that I might be a troll and if I'm not you feel that it must therefore be an entity. Then stated that I should go do "real research." And yet you're saying "oh on these forums we have to be skeptical." Then maybe actually try being skeptical and get further data instead of going with your feelings. Maybe try asking some clarifying questions about the details of my story, ask what the Kruger effect is, ask what I mean by shared dreams and how I induce one, ask about the process of a projection maybe. Y'know, basic clarifying questions like a researcher would ask. So you can attempt to accurately determine whether or not I actually am a troll making stuff up or if maybe there's something to it.
     
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  17. Alex

    Alex New

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    suggestion... look for some data, research, other related experiences(ers) to back-up what yr both saying. I get that there will be flare-ups and personality differences, but try and remember stumbling across a little nugget of good info in one of those kinda posts... it happens. why not make that yr post :)
     
  18. Far.From.Here

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    I'm perfectly willing to have an informed conversation about this stuff. You yourself labelled your post "crazy." You need to understand that the forum has been trolled by people who make claims to "super-natural" experiences in order to wind up the locals. I'm perfectly willing to accept your claims at face value for the sake of discussion. I will try to walk through your post and comment in order. Sometimes it takes a while to start communicating efficiently with new members because everyone has a different communication style, skin thickness, vocabulary, knowledge, etc.

    We can always use new members, especially practitioners. I would encourage her to join.
    I don't think anything you are talking about sounds out of the ordinary. OBEs and to some degree ideas like shared dreaming are no big deal for lots of folks on this forum. Being able to bi-locate and appear as a "poltergeist" is not unheard of, but it may be a stretch for some people to get a handle around. It certainly appears enough in the literature to be considered. I certain don't intend to make anyone feel humiliated. But I don't think it is unreasonable to expect people to try and flush out a troll.

    As I've already mentioned there are folks here who do or have done OBE and lucid dreaming work. If you have some practical advice we should open up a new thread or a private conversation with interested members and get started. I would certainly be there.

    I feel the need to repeat here that the record of the occult is at least several thousands of years old and can include writing from the East and the West. I still get the feeling here that you know very little about where people have "gone before." Are there any schools of thought that you resonate with? Maybe Tibetan Dream Yoga? Robert Bruce? He talks a lot about negative energies.

    Same as above. The internet is really only the last 20 years (maybe). You have literally thousands of years of other records of occult activity. You reject it all? I'm really down with only accepting what happens in practice as verified and "real."

    Are you keeping records of your testing? It would be interesting to see some of that.

    I'm fine with what you are saying. I'm a practitioner. I've been "out of my body" (whatever that means.) My comment stands though that I have never read any accounts of other practitioners that consistently report encountering negative entities. I'm not saying they aren't out there, but your version is unique in it contradicts almost every else's experience. Let's dig into that! Why is that? I'm as interested to know what that is as I'm sure you are. Let's do it. I'm not a lightworker. But I am someone who is constantly questioning every aspect of my reality. If I question my own reality you have to expect I'm going to question yours as well.

    I know from hearing numerous ayahuasca reports that people do sometimes have an negative entity energy attached and that it can be released through the ceremony. Do you reject that notion? Do you reject that true shamans have any "power?"

    We have already talked about the "kruger" effect. Would love to see some images of that.

    I think we have a general idea of what a shared dream is. Do you have a different concept of shared dreaming? Let's get into the meat and potatoes of the how and why in the new thread or conversation, whichever we decide on.
     
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  19. To be fair Casteneda did claim Don Juan told him a similar story, that an entity - some kind of giant eagle thing - devours souls but only a few can get past it.

    Also Streiber believes his wife had a miscarriage due to an attack by a malevolent entity.

    Not to say any of this is real, just that there exist claims that are similar about the predatory nature of the "Otherworld".
     
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  20. Far.From.Here

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    Right. But in Castaneda the Eagle is a-moral. It is likely a part of "nature." And there is also the "hero's path" that one can take to avoid oblivion at death. One can't deny that there are dangers in the non-physical. Castaneda certainly didn't and I don't either. But my feeling is much of the danger comes from encountering things out of ignorance that are more akin to visiting a beach on the day of a tsunami. I also accept that there may be malevolent entities in the non-physical who aim to hurt others, but I have a hard time accepting that everything in the non-physical is "out to get you." To my mind that is the kind of speech that the church used to make people shy away from occult activities and I reject that notion.

    Occult activities are serious and need to be conducted with care, but I believe there are forces for good there that are willing to lend a hand. Assuming everything is malevolent would be counter-intuitive and violate the kind of dualism that seems to pervade much of the world that we experience (good/evil, hot/cold, love/hate.)

    Sure. There are lots of stories of bad stuff being caused by bad "entities." But it is rare to find someone who says that there is basically only "bad" to be found by exploring the non-physical and that if one does encounter "good" it is just evil trying to trick someone. I don't buy that.
     

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