He claims to have traveled outside his body to bring back art… and much more |297|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Dec 15, 2015.

  1. Alex

    Alex New

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    He claims to have traveled outside his body to bring back art… and much more |297|
    by Alex Tsakiris | Dec 16 | Consciousness Science

    Jurgen Ziewe used lucid dreaming to travel outside of his body and explore other realms of consciousness.


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    photo by: Jurgen Ziewe

    I always thought lucid dreaming was baloney, until I had one myself. For several years my oldest son had told me about the wild escapades he orchestrating in his dreams. But Zack’s stories sounded like childhood fantasy, and I didn’t pay much attention. Then, I discovered lucid dreaming had become a hot topic among dream researchers and those attending weekend retreats “teaching” lucid dreaming. I decided to try it for myself.

    As it turns out the most effective trigger for having a lucid dream is becoming aware it’s possible. Learning others have them is sometimes all it takes to propel us into these other realms of consciousness. It was almost that easy for me. Soon after researching lucid dreaming I found myself in an ordinary dream with the realization that “I” was somehow separate from the scene being played out in front of me. It seem like natural and normal realization, “hey, this is a dream.” Once the idea sunk in I decided to take control. I did what most rookie lucid dreamer do — I jumped into the air and took flight!

    It seems unlikely this simple experience that almost anyone can achieve during a weekend course at their local Marriott can turn science’s understanding of who we are on it’s head, but it can. Because as today’s guest on Skeptiko explains lucid dreaming gives us the undeniable experience of being the observer of reality; and that’s a vantage point our current understanding of consciousness can’t accommodate:
     
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  2. "Are we playing out a destiny in our life or are we shaping our destiny as we go, or both?"

    It's like school. The curriculum is planned but the student's response and effort are up to him. We each have our own individual curriculum, but how we respond is up to us.

    "How do we ever get our arms around all this material when there are these conflicting and different accounts?"

    My opinion is that the best way to understand these types of experiences is to give the greatest weight to experiencers who routinely provide veridical information such as evidential mediums, or experiencers who have proven anomolous experiences, like NDErs who are conscious when there is no electrical activity in their brain. Different people define OBE differently so you have to consider the reports of OBEs on a person by person basis.

    Conflicts have to be considered on a case by case basis. You have to consider with specificity and in detail who is saying what: how do they obtain their information, what they are saying, and why they believe their statements are true. There can be various causes of conflicts and trying to explain them all with one answer is oversimplifying.

    The best way to develop an understanding of the non-physical realms is to read books by evidential mediums and NDErs and after you develop a sense of the other realm based on veridical sources and proven anomalous experiences, you can judge for yourself what to make of other types of experiences. But many non-physical things cannot be understood during a physical existence so you have to accept that there will be things you will not understand.

     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2015
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  3. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    Alex's questions at the end of the podcast:

    What do you make of Jurgen Ziewe? What do you think of his accounts of this extended consciousness realm? How do they compare and contrast with the views of other Skeptiko guests? How do we reconcile all these conflicting accounts?
     
  4. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    What do you make of Jurgen Ziewe? What do you think of his accounts of this extended consciousness realm? How do they compare and contrast with the views of other Skeptiko guests? How do we reconcile all these conflicting accounts?

    I warmed to Jurgen: I felt he was open and honest. The thing about most reported descriptions of a reality beyond this one is that they still embrace a notion of space, matter and time. You can't perceive anyone, or a great choir, or whatever, unless there is space in which to see them; you can't observe them doing anything unless they do it in time, and their appearance as objects localisable in space implies some kind of material framework, however tenuous or unfamiliar.

    To me, this means that there is still some conditioned perception in play, because I don't believe that space, matter and time exist except in the dissociated minds of alters (as Bernardo Kastrup would put it). So to some extent at least, in the various states of altered awareness, dissociated and conditioned minds still exist. It's possible that some states are a little different--one thinks of Buddhist descriptions, for example, where people are simply aware of awareness and experience what they claim is complete absence of ego, but I wonder whether that's completely free of interpretative language. All descriptions are at a remove from experiences themselves; all attempts to explain using ordinary language, in which concepts of space, matter and time are implicitly embedded.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2015
  5. Alex

    Alex New

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    maybe, but maybe not... Bernardo is not only zooming past all human experience, but if we take Jurgen seriously, a good portion of after-death experience as well.

    I suspect there is a purpose beyond transcending the purpose.
     
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  6. Steve

    Steve Member

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    I was very pleased to see Jurgen as a guest on Skeptiko, as I feel he can point us in the right direction, closer to where we want to be. Having said that, the road ahead may be a bit blurred, some of the questions I'm asking myself are, why is it deliberately that way, as it seems to be, and why isn't it made clearer once you're on the right path. It seems to me that no-one here on earth knows the way, at least no-one that I'm aware of that makes his views public or that I can trust. If Jesus were alive today would I still be wary? Probably. Why should we believe ?That is where I think Jurgen stands out for me, I feel that I can trust what he says. He doesn't make stuff up, or interpret it particularly.

    I think he honestly reports what he experiences, as difficult as that may be for some to accept. What I find slightly frustrating, is that leaves many questions unanswered, it seems to me that Jurgen is happy to do so. He is okay with just being the observer. I personally would like to see a more 'lively' approach to 'guessing' the big answers. It would I think make a more colourful 'show'. Just don't be too serious. On the other hand we see Tom Campbell, similar to Jurgen in that, he too, has meditated and travelled out of body for many years. But unlike Jurgen, has put forward a theory to accompany his experiences, My Big TOE, in which he seems to answer all our questions! Tom may be right, but I am uncomfortable with those who 'know' everything. One thing that Tom says is that we're here to decrease our entropy, to 'become love' , that is a message that I get from many different sources. Jurgen doesn't seem to push that message, although I think he will acknowledge it. I don't know?

    I was disappointed when the first thing Alex mentioned was Ian McC's NDE as I have a feeling that Jurgen gets frustrated by people's throwing themselves behind their often one big spiritual event in their lives, when he's had many. What I wanted to ask him was, how come when people have just one experience they often (relatively) have such definite things that they bring back. If he has similar experiences, has he become 'used to' these type of experiences such that they are perhaps not typical, but sort of. Why do people come back with deep knowings, affecting their whole lives and knowledge of future events etc. God is made more understandable to them, I can hardly remember an atheist having an NDE and remaining that way, although there are probably some. (Are there any that had deep NDEs that have?) NDErs often appear to have psychic abilities when they return, can't wear watches etc. Does he have anything similar to report? Although he has undoubtably had many amazing experiences, why have none of them answered many questions in a way that some NDEs do? This may seem like I'm pushing a bit and I guess I am.

    Is enlightenment what we all should be aiming towards, it seems to me that Jurgen has travelled a long way down that road. It is what I am asking myself now, should we as individuals be both community oriented as well as seeking to spiritually develop ourselves? Was Einstein as 'useful' to our evolving as Mother Theresa? I am now deep into middle age, so it is academic for me, but still interesting. When we get the opportunity to communicate with dead relatives, as Jurgen claims to have had, why not ask them what motivates them now, is there anyone helping them along/ holding them back, do they intend reincarnating, do they have a choice? Etc

    As I said it's all a bit blurry! Maybe I'm too big of an ego to understand.
     
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  7. Michael Larkin

    Michael Larkin Member

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    You could well be correct; there may be different realms of existence after death. I'm only saying that glimpses of those are very often interpreted using human language. For all I know, Jurgen's perceptions could be of real things, but I have my doubts whether his reports of them are completely accurate; they are overlaid by human conditioning.
     
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  8. Saiko

    Saiko Member

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    - No opinion.

    - Very interesting. Intriguing and fun creations of experience.

    - Compare/contrast is a red herring. Consciousness is not a limited physical space or state.

    - Among those who are genuinely exploring there is no conflict. People generate different experiences which are always highly individualized. Consciousness is not a thing and the variety/types of experiences within it are infinite.
     
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  9. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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    Regarding the question about hierarchy... Is there a hierarchy with something like the notion of God at the top of it? Jurgen's answer was sort of a no.

    It has been mentioned on the Skeptiko show (Tim Freke I think) that there is a materialist reductionist tendency to diminish or demystify reality by saying "it's just" this or "it's just that". I think that this is a human tendency and not unique to the materialist reductionist paradigm. Those who are religious do the same things when they say, "It's just God" or "It's just the devil" or "It's just Karma." We tend to try and do the same things over here in the SBNR non-materialist camp. We have an experience of Oneness and say, "its just that we are all ultimately one and there is no hierarchy." We have an experience of lucid dreaming or an OOB where reality materializes in infinite detail just by focusing on something, so we say, "reality is just a mental creation." Or maybe we have a chat with the aliens or the deceased who tell us that we all decided prior to our present incarnation to sign a contract to do this or that in this life, and so we say, "life is just a school where we learn some things by choosing to have a particular kind of experience."

    It seems to me that we constantly try to frame reality in such a way that it is demystified and explained thereby making it beneath us. We seek an explanation that seems to fit and when we find one, there is a huge reward in the feeling of epiphany and in the expanded sense of awareness that it brings. This high eventually wears off, and if we are of the less curious type, we harden this explanation into our own personal dogma which can sometimes lead to dull and idiotic proceedings. If we are of the more curious type, we go in search of more and grander and deeper explanations which repeat the cycle of epiphany, demystification, boredom, search for truth, epiphany, demystification, boredom, search for truth... etc, but at least we get the sense that we are orbiting and spiraling in closer and closer to... something... something that cannot be expressed in words... the Truth?

    But getting back to the hierarchy thing... Yes, we can take the perspective that there really isn't any hierarchy and we are all just shards of the Oneness finding unique ways of expressing itself. I think that is a valid and often helpful perspective. But we also find ourselves in this world where hierarchies exist. It doesn't always help us when we are before the judge or the public official to view them as one with us. Similarly we can have the perspective when travelling abroad in these alternate realms that the angels or demons we encounter are just projections of the self-mind, but that might not always be the most helpful perspective to have at the moment.

    Hierarchy (in the sense that it was mentioned) implies levels of class or authority. The one with authority authors the story. In this day and age, most of us have a lot of authority meaning we can write our own stories and do our own thing within certain boundaries. If you cross over beyond your own realm of authority, you weave your story into another story. Let's say you're Rosa Parks, and you refuse to accept the authority and hierarchy you find yourself within and you choose to cross the boundaries set for you. By challenging authority in this way you become involved in a larger grander story. Or let's say you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and find yourself in the middle of a shootout between two mobs who are battling for authority over a certain area of illicit commerce. It is possible to accidentally find yourself in the middle of a power struggle, and a power struggle is just a battle over authority which is an attempt to control a higher level of the narrative. If all of reality can be viewed as a collection of stories woven together at different levels of complexity and effect, then reality is also hierarchical just as informational detail is hierarchical. When Jurgen looked at the teacup, he found patterns on it that he didn't expect and he could examine it at deeper and deeper levels of detail until it was crystal clear. The same is true regarding story or narrative or myth. We can zoom in or out of the level of story we find ourselves within just as we can zoom in or out on the boundaries around informational detail in "physical" objects.

    My point is that there are stories of varying size and scope all around us with actors who are competing for control over various stories. We might go OOB and find ourselves in the middle of another power struggle, and yes we can have the perspective that there is ultimately no hierarchy, but that might not be the most pertinent or helpful perspective to have in that moment. The OOB traveler encountered the demon and had to battle him for months in this reality. Perhaps he stumbled onto a turf war between some controlling entities and like the passerby caught in the crossfire between two warring mobs, he became involved in a larger level of story.
     
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  10. Alex

    Alex New

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    thx for pointing me Jurgen's way.

    I agree that Jurgen give a great glimpse of the other side... but how do we square it with (she's using similar methods):
     
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  11. Alex

    Alex New

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    I didn't hear that... I heard "too big to conceptualize/name." I kinda like that.

    :)
     
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  12. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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    Well yes I agree that I heard his openness in the "too big to conceptualize name" and I agree with that... I was thinking specifically of his response to your question of hierarchy which was to say that in one OOB he asked some beings what level he was on and that question was nonsense to them. So he was kind of saying that.... when you're at the higher levels... it appears that there is no hierarchy... though when you're down here in the dirt, it does kind of seem that way.
     
  13. Alex

    Alex New

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    right. IDK. It was kinda funny when he talked about asking, "what level are you?"
     
  14. JKMac

    JKMac New

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    Thanks Alex for having Jurgen on. In my opinion, he is the most informative person I have come across on the matter of non-physical reality. His book, Multidimensional Man is a masterpiece.

    I have been doing research on non-physical reality for a number of years and have found that his experiences have never contradicted my own.

    I have been lucid dreaming for my whole life, and have come to the opinion that it is one of the most accessible methods to experience the non-physical nature of existence.

    Actually based on what I've seen (and this has been said many times before), there IS NO physical nature of existence at all,, other than our experience of physicality, which is quite convincing and actually quite "real". I say quite "real" only in the sense that for example: the emotions or other sensations you feel in a dream are also very "real" to you,,, it's just that they are are not the result of interacting with something materially solid. Why must they be?

    It appears to me that everything in the universe is a construction of consciousness. So in this way consciousness is not an outcome of physical processes the way most would think, rather: the experience of a physical universe is the result of consciousness, it takes place completely within consciousness.

    When things are looked at through this lens, many things that formerly made no sense all of a sudden do.

    Science will eventually come to this conclusion as soon as they drop (little by little) the shackles of a multitude of incorrect base assumptions that keep them from considering this as a possibility. I think Einstein and several others of the greats, were alluding to this fact later in their careers. The quotes are numerous pointing to a great underlying unknown aspect of our universe. We have since had no scientific leader with the insight, the gravitas and the fortitude to blaze this trail.

    I bet it takes another hundred years to do so... : (

    Note: I am not denying the validity or the importance of the work that science continues to do in improving the understand of the physical aspect of our universe. I am just saying that all they are accomplishing is the unveiling of the "ruleset" governing the "physical experience" that we are all operating within. Science spends almost no time trying to uncover the underlying foundation which gives rise to this experience of physicality. And what Jurgen is pointing to is this very foundation. And it is consciousness.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2015
  15. Steve

    Steve Member

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    I watched about half an hour of the video, I didn't really warm to it or Marylynn. I didn't dislike her, but I think she's too into a story.

    I don't think that what she describes is far from what Jurgen describes when he talks about the lower levels. It's really nasty, no doubt. She seems to be coming at it from a Ian McCormack type of viewpoint, very good/evil angel/demon God/devil viewpoint. Where I think there's only God, if there is a 'devil' it's just a part of God. (I sound very sensible, like I am informed :eek:) I couldn't find out too much about her, she had an NDE though. :)

    When I said I was disappointed it was more like 'Uh oh, Alex has gone straight there!' It's just a sense I have when I read posts on Facebook that Jurgen has replied to, and I get where he's coming from. It's sometimes difficult to see beyond dogma and ego these days when NDEs are involved. It's difficult to make sense of any of it, very easy to get drawn into the detail. I think it's probably a simple enough concept were expected to follow, basically Marylynn says as much, then she over complicates things. Maybe Jurgen isn't cut out for fighting? :)
     
  16. Far.From.Here

    Far.From.Here New

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    This is also the conclusion I must come to based on experience and study.

    But I doubt any other conclusions including the ideas:
    --that everyone's individual consciousness is eternal.
    --that love is the ultimate answer/reality.
    --that the hierarchies that appear in "non-physical" reality are not illusory.
    --that the white light and feelings of all-emcompassing love from NDEs are unquestionably the forces of "good" and not evil.
    --that there is no true evil.

    Not to imply that you hold these ideas as truths. I just think many people fall into the trap of buying the current afterlife mythologies based on the experiences of a number of well known OBE practitioners and numerous NDE experiencers.

    There are lesser known ideas of the nature of reality that clearly state that one must be a "warrior" to survive "eternally" and that many others are eventually reabsorbed into the one (true death).
     
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  17. Alex

    Alex New

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    thx for the great post.

    this is a great question... one that gets brushed aside too easily. I think lucid dreams might be one of the best tools for shattering the materialism illusion.
     
  18. Judith

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    Enjoyed the interview and found I could anticipate his answers to many questions, based on my own limited experience with OBE's. Mine were all spontaneous, at night, heralded by a feeling of being paralyzed and an experience of bodily vibrations. I could never control where I went...some were presaged by the spinning tunnel effect,in others I remained conscious and passed through walls...in one I went shooting out into the stars. I do recall at least one where I encountered "scary" beings, and a sense that I wanted to escape from that place immediately...that it was not a place I felt called to explore. My first experience was accompanied by "hands" helping me to leave the body. I sensed two beings who were doing this. William Buhlman explains that indeed there are different "places" over there where spirits congregate into like-minded groups.

    I also had the experience of "melding" with what I perceived to be a "golden being". It was an ineffable experience.....don't know who or what it was, but I right away came up with the name "Michael". For many years I put away these experiences, since no one I knew had experienced anything comparable, and the first time I confided in someone, the words "mentally unbalanced" were mentioned.....no internet back in the 70's. Now I enjoy reading other people's accounts....and mostly they coincide with what I remember. Sadly, I didn't write many of them down.
     
  19. JKMac

    JKMac New

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    A reasonable list of doubts. I too m not able to adopt these as truths until I see some better evidence. Although I have long-since learned not to be as demanding/rigid as I once was in terms of "proof" in this realm.

    Having said all that,,, there is a ton of reports attesting to the primacy of Love in our deeper existence so I lean towards this assertion.
     
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  20. JKMac

    JKMac New

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    During the period of my research I have been writing essays to track my progress and to help me work out where I stand on lots of these matters, and why. I have turned a few of them into blog entries. May assemble some of the material into a book if it ever feels like the right thing to do.

    In case anyone is interested, here is a link to a piece I did a few months ago that gives a small sense of how I came to this conclusion....

    Haven't posted before cause I didn't want to get into a tit-for-tat defense of it but what the heck.

    http://thecrookedroadhome.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-illusion-of-matter.html
     
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