Hellish NDEs

#1
Hello everyone,

I'm recording a series of interviews on Hell and hellish experiences. So far I've had Anglican priest Simon Small on, as well as NDE'er Angie Fenimore. Angie went to 'the edge of Hell' after a suicide attempt before being rescued by Jesus. The experience was totally transformative for her.

I'm looking to produce something practical addressing Hadephobia – the fear of Hell. I have a Tibetan Buddhist and a psychotherapist lined up to come on, I'm also attempting to get someone who has had a fundamentalist Christian Hell experience.


If anyone has any thoughts I'd be glad to hear them...
 
#3
Okay hopefully I have Bryan W Melvin coming on, author of A Land Unknown. Very similar experience to Bill Weise I think.


What interests me is that the message Bryan says he got from the NDE, it wasn't an 'It's all about love it doesn't matter what religion you are' message; it was a 'believe in Jesus or else' message. What does that say about the nature of NDEs?

It certainly transformed Byran's life, he went from atheist to preacher.

I'll post some of my ideas but would love to know what questions other people would ask...
 
#4
It seems unlikely that this was actually the message of his NDE. Perhaps his frightened mind portrayed it as such, but let's pick this apart and see how much sense this makes: Assuming what he says is true, God is cruel and vindictive and forces people to worship him or will otherwise burn in eternal damnation forever. What sense does this make? What about people who have never heard of the Hebrew God? Why would he do something as silly as allowing them to burn in Hell, simply because they have no knowledge of him? What sense does that make? Furthermore, an all-loving God cannot by its very nature simply allow people to burn in Hell because they don't believe in him. It would be like getting punished for not believing in the Easter Bunny. It's silly. Getting burned in Hell does not at all seem like the actions of a loving God (if indeed such a thing exists).

If you ask me, religion is a fear tactic used by the establishment to divide the masses. We should do well to avoid it, but to acknowledge the spiritual aspect of our existence that can be seen through mystical and NDEs.
 
#5
It seems unlikely that this was actually the message of his NDE. Perhaps his frightened mind portrayed it as such, but let's pick this apart and see how much sense this makes: Assuming what he says is true, God is cruel and vindictive and forces people to worship him or will otherwise burn in eternal damnation forever. What sense does this make? What about people who have never heard of the Hebrew God? Why would he do something as silly as allowing them to burn in Hell, simply because they have no knowledge of him? What sense does that make? Furthermore, an all-loving God cannot by its very nature simply allow people to burn in Hell because they don't believe in him. It would be like getting punished for not believing in the Easter Bunny. It's silly. Getting burned in Hell does not at all seem like the actions of a loving God (if indeed such a thing exists).

If you ask me, religion is a fear tactic used by the establishment to divide the masses. We should do well to avoid it, but to acknowledge the spiritual aspect of our existence that can be seen through mystical and NDEs.
Two lines of questioning I plan on going down are -

Do you see a possibility for a distinction between the experience itself and your interpretation of it? Could it have been symbolic in some way?

And...

How do you cope psychologically with holding such beliefs? Surely a belief in a God like that would lead many to depression and despair.
 
#6
To answer your question, I believe more than likely that what his experience was likely symbolic in some way, as this does not fit the template of most reported NDEs.

As for how someone could cope psychologically: it's simple. Religion has appeal because it gives people something to belong to and also gives there lives meaning, but it also has a more insidious factor in which it more often than not leads to us vs them mentality and people use it to justify all kinds of monstrosities. After all, if you are the only right God, all other beliefs become unacceptable. If a being is omnipotent, it cannot be wrong, so, therefore, unbelievers deserve everything they get with this logic.

As far as how someone would cope: some people see it as something they have to do, just like you have to pay taxes. If you don't pay taxes, you will go to jail. In another token, if you don't worship the Hebrew God, you will burn forever in the pit of Hell. This is the logic of some people. They don't see it as a choice they have.
 
#7
Hello everyone,

I'm recording a series of interviews on Hell and hellish experiences. So far I've had Anglican priest Simon Small on, as well as NDE'er Angie Fenimore. Angie went to 'the edge of Hell' after a suicide attempt before being rescued by Jesus. The experience was totally transformative for her.

I'm looking to produce something practical addressing Hadephobia – the fear of Hell. I have a Tibetan Buddhist and a psychotherapist lined up to come on, I'm also attempting to get someone who has had a fundamentalist Christian Hell experience.


If anyone has any thoughts I'd be glad to hear them...
well this is great please keep us posted. We got to find a way to work this into future episodes
 
#8
I have been watching the Hellish NDE's phenom for some time. They bear a distinctly common set of differences from pleasant NDE's.

The vast majority (as in really ALL) of hellish NDE's I have examined were experienced by people who were exhibiting extremes of self-obsession (see video below), in major depression, really nasty/dark people in real life, or were attempting suicide. Most did not actually 'die' with the confirmation of a code-call. Most all were experiences by people who passed out in their kitchen and then woke back up, or passed out on their bed with a heart attack and were magically healed so that they did not have to go to the hospital when they woke up, or walked away from an auto accident in which they 'died', or like the one below, just fell asleep and dreamed how childish and self-obsessed they were, and so they became even more childish and self obsessed as a result. Now they want to take that childish self obsession out on others too, by beating others with a religious stick.

Hmmmm...When a person comes back from their purported 'NDE' abusing others and selling even more terror than the Hell Worshipers are already selling to begin with... Not a lot of respect for this...


Let's be careful to not give credence to those who have nefarious goals in mind when they relate their 'NDE'
 
#9
I would be careful with this. There is a lot of mystery when it comes to the nature of Hellish NDEs, particularly why they are so rare and why they seem to contradict the majority of the positive messages of regular NDEs. It may be true that some may have a religious agenda when it comes to promoting what they experienced in their NDE, but I would also be wary about lumping depressed people into the category of self-obsessed. It is true that their brains ruminate on themselves far more often, but it is an illness that cannot be helped, no different than the common cold. One suggestion I have for these NDEs (it's out there and little to no proof), but bear with me is that they could be the creation of what the Gnostics refer to as the Archons, which are described in Gnostic texts as being deceivers who seek to lead people astray by displaying themselves as spiritual entities.

I have no proof for this claim, and I typically try to avoid speculation as much as possible, but this is one potential answer to the question of Hellish NDEs.
 
#10
I have been watching the Hellish NDE's phenom for some time. They bear a distinctly common set of differences from pleasant NDE's.

The vast majority (as in really ALL) of hellish NDE's I have examined were experienced by people who were exhibiting extremes of self-obsession (see video below), in major depression, really nasty/dark people in real life, or were attempting suicide. Most did not actually 'die' with the confirmation of a code-call. Most all were experiences by people who passed out in their kitchen and then woke back up, or passed out on their bed with a heart attack and were magically healed so that they did not have to go to the hospital when they woke up, or walked away from an auto accident in which they 'died', or like the one below, just fell asleep and dreamed how childish and self-obsessed they were, and so they became even more childish and self obsessed as a result. Now they want to take that childish self obsession out on others too, by beating others with a religious stick.

Hmmmm...When a person comes back from their purported 'NDE' abusing others and selling even more terror than the Hell Worshipers are already selling to begin with... Not a lot of respect for this...


Let's be careful to not give credence to those who have nefarious goals in mind when they relate their 'NDE'
I often wonder if each spiritual tradition has a corresponding experience of the hellish NDE, with the variables changed to match the cultural context.

It seems to me this is an initiatory experience that is meant to challenge one to buy into a delusion/illusion as presented, or push through to a higher level of understanding. The same could be said of abductees accepting the messages given to them at face value.

In this vein...

"Enlightenment is a destructive process. It has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It’s seeing through the facade of pretense. It’s the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true. – Adyashanti"
 
#11
It may also be as Kenneth Ring suggests that Hellish NDEs are "less-real" than the positive ones, due to the seeming lack of veridical perception with them and could possibly be triggered as a ketamine reaction or possibly as a complication of anesthesia. It is known that large doses of ketamine can cause intense and fearful reactions, but then again, the people who have gone through the Hellish NDEs are so terrified by the experience that their entire life changes, so it's hard to say.
 
#12
I would also be wary about lumping depressed people into the category of self-obsessed. It is true that their brains ruminate on themselves far more often, but it is an illness that cannot be helped, no different than the common cold.
Yes, depression can be an illness and not a true self obsession. Agreed on this wise caution. Depression does not itself make a person dishonest.

Disingenuous warning flags tend to ubiquitously arise inside solely hellish NDE's... both in the relating of the NDE experiences themselves, as well as in the lives of those who had them both before and after the experience. I have yet to see a person who had a solely hellish NDE, be a better person now as a result. They for the most part are simply a terrified version of the same person they were before. A stick approach does not change people, simply brings them into inaction regarding what they would have wanted to do otherwise.

I can see why an agnostic would be tempted to dismiss the whole thing. Negative and Positive NDE's are in direct falsifying relationship with each other. They cannot both simultaneously be true as they relate abjectly contradicting conjectures. One or the other (or both) has (have) to be false.
 
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#13
Hello everyone,

I'm recording a series of interviews on Hell and hellish experiences. So far I've had Anglican priest Simon Small on, as well as NDE'er Angie Fenimore. Angie went to 'the edge of Hell' after a suicide attempt before being rescued by Jesus. The experience was totally transformative for her.

I'm looking to produce something practical addressing Hadephobia – the fear of Hell. I have a Tibetan Buddhist and a psychotherapist lined up to come on, I'm also attempting to get someone who has had a fundamentalist Christian Hell experience.


If anyone has any thoughts I'd be glad to hear them...
P.M.H. Atwater, whose work on the NDE after effects was cited on the Lancet, had experienced three NDEs in her lifetime, and the first one was unpleasant. In her 2018 IANDS presentation, she seemed to suggest that you do have a choice for your NDE, hellish or otherwise. Eban Alexander's NDE was hellish initially but changed afterwards. According to Susan Blackmore, if you inject Naloxone (an Opioid antagonist) to a person who was experiencing a pleasant NDE, the experience will turn hellish.
 
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#14
According to Susan Blackmore, if you inject Naloxone (an Opioid antagonist) to a person who was experiencing a pleasant NDE, the experience will turn hellish.
I wonder - does naloxone help to restart the heart, or is that a purely theoretical assertion, because:

a) Nobody is going to do anything medical to a person in cardiac arrest except try to get their heart beating again.

b) If you inject something into a person, it has to circulate to have an effect.

David
 
#15
Yes, depression can be an illness and not a true self obsession. Agreed on this wise caution. Depression does not itself make a person dishonest.

Disingenuous warning flags tend to ubiquitously arise inside solely hellish NDE's... both in the relating of the NDE experiences themselves, as well as in the lives of those who had them both before and after the experience. I have yet to see a person who had a solely hellish NDE, be a better person now as a result. They for the most part are simply a terrified version of the same person they were before. A stick approach does not change people, simply brings them into inaction regarding what they would have wanted to do otherwise.

I can see why an agnostic would be tempted to dismiss the whole thing. Negative and Positive NDE's are in direct falsifying relationship with each other. They cannot both simultaneously be true as they relate abjectly contradicting conjectures. One or the other (or both) has (have) to be false.
The interesting thing is that for anyone who seriously studies NDEs and not just debunk them from the outset, they come to the inevitable conclusion that the experiences are real and in many cases are completely inexplicable, but I can personally understand why so many are fearful of the concept of a continuation of conciousness after death, or why so many scientists reject evidence of ESP, despite the fact that anyone who has seriously investigated the phenomenon like the SRI has found a small but noticable effect that cannot be attributed to chance. The truth of the matter is that things like this only lead to more questions and some of those questions can get quite scary. For instance, supposing that precognition is true, where does this leave free will, the concept of time? Also, the fear of the unknown is just as real in science as in all other realms. When we come across information that does not agree with our pre-concevied notions, we tend to shut down as a defense mechanism.

I guarantee you that even if Richard Dawkins were to witness what amounts to poltergiest activity, like say a table levitated in front of him and there is physical evidence that this happened, he would still reject it because it would not fit with what he believes to be true about the universe. I feel that deep down inside everyone fears having their viewpoint challenged, but this is the only way that growth can ever happen. The fact that archeology is only now taking the idea of human civilization being far more sophisticated and older than once thought attests to this. I guarantee you years ago that if an archaeologist told the Scientific American that they found evidence of a pyramid that was 20,000 years old, they would have been labeled as a quack, but now this is front page news, though it has admittedly been buried (disclaimer: the pyramid is dated by this archeologist to be 20,000 years old, but may be even older). This is very upsetting to the establishment because it means that we have to rethink everything we think is true about the past. If conventional history is correct, hunter gatherers weren't sophisticated enough to build a pyramid at this time, yet there it is.
 
#16
I wonder - does naloxone help to restart the heart, or is that a purely theoretical assertion, because:

a) Nobody is going to do anything medical to a person in cardiac arrest except try to get their heart beating again.

b) If you inject something into a person, it has to circulate to have an effect.

David
You can give naloxone intravenously during CPR(cardiopulmonary resuscitation), while the circulation is artificially maintained by cardiac compression. However, I wonder how you can tell whether a person is experiencing NDE or not during CPR, perhaps through the patient's own recall after he/she is revived. Then how can the patient tell when he/she received the naloxone? Perhaps through his/her OBE?
 
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#17
You can give naloxone intravenously during CPR(cardiopulmonary resuscitation), while the circulation is artificially maintained by cardiac compression. However, I wonder how you can tell whether a person is experiencing NDE or not during CPR, perhaps through the patient's own recall after he/she is revived. Then how can the patient tell when he/she received the naloxone? Perhaps through his/her OBE?
Is naloxone of value in restarting the heart?
David
 
#19
Naloxone will not restart the heart, but it can restart the respiration if a patient is overdosed on opioids. Opioids are potent respiratory depressants.
OK - so Susan Blackmore is presumably reporting an actual observation (presumably mainly is suicides/drug overdose situations) - I wasn't sure. As I understand it naloxone stops endorphins and any other opiod drugs from working, so presumably the result is going to be extremely unpleasant for the patient.

Should we deduce anything from all that?

David
 
#20
OK - so Susan Blackmore is presumably reporting an actual observation (presumably mainly is suicides/drug overdose situations) - I wasn't sure. As I understand it naloxone stops endorphins and any other opiod drugs from working, so presumably the result is going to be extremely unpleasant for the patient.

Should we deduce anything from all that?

David
She believed that NDE was produced by the euphoric effect of endogenous opioids and endorphins released by the dying brain.
 
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