How do cells know what do without intelligence?

Right, the abstracted information is not the medium, since it can be copied to another medium.

So what is your point? Why are you so jazzed about the distinction between abstracted codes and the chemistry that processes them?

~~ Paul

Well for the 10th time, the statement that it is all chemistry ignores the fact that information is behind the processes. No matter which way you look at it.
Life is not reducable to chemistry. The chemistry is the same in all organisms as are the building blocks, what separates species is the information.
The translation process is not purely chemical because it translates non physical information carried by a sequence (not determined by chemistry) in the form of 1d digital information into 3d physical structure. From one code to another. Code and information is what is not chemical! The rules of the code are not physical constraints as in chemically determined but formal controls. There is no chemical reason why a codon should determine a particular amino acid. In some bacteria there are variations of the code quite clearly showing it is not chemically determined.

You may disagree, but this is the science as it stands I am sorry. Deal with it. I will not argue these points anymore. It is not really controversial but fact. I have posted links for all this backing it up and done my best to explain it. Anyone can find this information easily enough.
 
Well for the 10th time, the statement that it is all chemistry ignores the fact that information is behind the processes. No matter which way you look at it.
I don't know what you mean by "chemistry" ignoring this fact. Biologists certainly don't ignore it.

Life is not reducable to chemistry. The chemistry is the same in all organisms as are the building blocks, what separates species is the information.
Agreed.

The translation process is not purely chemical because it translates non physical information carried by a sequence (not determined by chemistry) in the form of 1d digital information into 3d physical structure. From one code to another. Code and information is what is not chemical! The rules of the code are not physical constraints as in chemically determined but formal controls. There is no chemical reason why a codon should determine a particular amino acid. In some bacteria there are variations of the code quite clearly showing it is not chemically determined.
There are chemical reasons for the codon/amino acid matching, although some of the mapping may have been random. You know there are many articles about physical constraints on the mapping. It's more important to note that there are not so many chemical constraints on genetic sequences.

I don't understand why you think the translation process is not pure chemistry. It involves information, but the process is chemical. All chemical reactions involve information, so to say that makes them not pure chemistry seems pointless.

~~ Paul
 
There are chemical reasons for the codon/amino acid matching, although some of the mapping may have been random.

Source please.

No, the code is mediated by tRNA carrying the anti-codon rather than the codon itself, the sterio chemical theory attempts to explain the code with chemical affinities. Any chemical reason between codon and anti codon means the code would have to had the multi step process from the very beginning and you simply make it even harder to explain.

I don't understand why you think the translation process is not pure chemistry. It involves information, but the process is chemical. All chemical reactions involve information, so to say that makes them not pure chemistry seems pointless.

I explained All why, and supported it. All chemical reactions do not involve digital semantic information. Translation is carried out in a entirely mechanistic fashion, this is not the same as saying the process is determined by chemistry.
 
Source please.
No, the code is mediated by tRNA carrying the anti-codon rather than the codon itself, the sterio chemical theory attempts to explain the code with chemical affinities. Any chemical reason between codon and anti codon means the code would have to had the multi step process from the very beginning and you simply make it even harder to explain.
You just answered your own request for a source: the stereochemical hypothesis. The standard codon table is not random. There are also various error minimization theories. And various intermediate code hypotheses.

I explained All why, and supported it. All chemical reactions do not involve digital semantic information. Translation is carried out in a entirely mechanistic fashion, this is not the same as saying the process is determined by chemistry.
Ah, so it's not any old information, but "digital semantic" information. By "digital" I presume you mean the genetic code. I don't know why you use the term "semantic."

I did not say that the process is "determined" by chemistry. You said:

"The translation process is not purely chemical because it translates non physical information carried by a sequence ..."

Here you are clearly talking about the process, not its determination (origin?). It appears that if the process involves information (you didn't say "digital semantic" information), then you think it is not a purely chemical process. But now you qualify the definition of information and clarify that you meant the "determination" of the process, not necessarily the process itself.

We agree that there are chemical processes and coded information. I wish we could take the next step.

~~ Paul
 
Weak, as usual. You never do come up with the goods, mostly cause it's all crap. Just waffly words, many of which are simply false scientifically, by any standard.

I have framed my only point multiple ways. Your hairsplitting is nothing but your usual tactics of deflection away from having to support your statements that you regurgitate as fact, when the actual evidence clearly contradicts. Stop pretending and refrain from making claims you can't support.

In conclusion Steve001 sweeping and far reaching statement, based on a paradgm shifting non darawinian form of hereditary inheritance. That is far more complex than most can conceive is well just ludicrous in the extreme. I have noticed a lot of scientism from you guys. But when it comes to science you fail.

The stereochemical theory: tantalizing hints but no conclusive evidence
Extensive early experimentation has detected, at best, weak and relatively non-specific interactions between amino acids and their cognate triplets (5, 73, 74). Nevertheless, it is not unreasonable to argue that even a relatively weak, moderately selective affinity between codons (anticodons) and the cognate amino acids could have been sufficient to precipitate the emergence of the primordial code that subsequently evolved into the modern code in which the specificity is maintained by much more precise and elaborate, indirect mechanisms involving tRNAs and aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases.

As I have been saying the code is mediated through the enzymes coded in information, recognition is physical as the controls have become substantiated into matter from non physical digital information, one specific synthetase to each amino acid! They perform high fidelity proof reading the chemical reaction is the charging or disolving of the bond based on choice contingency in the recognition factor. The controls that operate the recognition and choice are physical but defined by information.

Furthermore, it can be argued that interaction between amino acids and triplets are strong enough for detection only within the context of specific RNA structures that ensure the proper conformation of the triplet; this could be the cause of the failure of straightforward experiments with trinucleotides or the corresponding polynucleotides.

Specific structure ensures confirmation or as I said ealier recognition. Structure defined by information not chemistry.

There are yet more variations on the theme... still more failure.

On the whole, it appears that the aptamer experiments, although suggestive, fail to clinch the case for the stereochemical theory of the code. As noticed above, the affinities are rather weak, so that even the conclusions on their reality hinge on the adopted statistical models. Even more disturbing, for different amino acids, the aptamers show enrichment for either codon or anticodon sequence or even for both (75), a lack of coherence that is hard to reconcile with these interactions being the physical basis of the code.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3293468/

I have already posted two links confirming there is no direct chemical connection between codon and amino acid. It is well accepted.

The rules of the code are not physical laws as in constraints but formal controls manifest into matter.

It is interesting to note, a codon within a gene does not by itself produce the final protein. It does have individual formal meaning instantiated into its physical sequence. A gene or microRNA functions as a physical symbol vehicle syntax representing a string of choices [24]. As such, the linear digital sequence of codons is a form of PI [23,24]. Each codon transmits meaningful information which upon translation, can be equivocated to an arbitrary "letter" (in protein space) [12,40]. However, as a single letter it does not contain the equivalent meaning found in the language context of a word [24,39].

Once the rules or mappings are instantiated into physicality, then the physical codon sequence could potentially become a physical cause. Physicodynamic determinism is not the only kind of determinism. Choice-Contingent Causation and Control (CCCC) [19]) is also a valid form of determinism that can get instantiated into physicality. But, as we shall see, the process of translation is still not physicodynamically determined. Only formal algorithmic processing can bring about the process of translation within ribosomes.

There is no known physicodynamic cause for the codon to tRNA translation scheme. Since all genes can be modeled using rules (be they grammar or logical) rather than physicodynamic determinism, we inductively assert that the operation and organization of the genome operate under the influence of a programming language. The genome can be considered as a collective ensemble of instructions and data. Portions of the DNA sequences are algorithmic instantiations. This is evidenced for example, by pre-initiation, enhancer and promoter regions, lincRNA's, siRNA's and a host of other instructive sequences, that collectively instruct direct functionality such as gene regulation. In addition to the instruction constructs, the genome is also composed of data in the form of codons. This results in mature mRNAs that are handled as data by other processors (ribosome) which are executing their own algorithms. In other words there are "multiple programming languages" in the cell.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3319427/

I think I have made my point. You can misunderstand, deflect and perform all your linguistic acrobatics but it will never have any meat. It is extremely clear you are biased by your own ideology. I don't see how any one could say otherwise. I am done.

Histone code explains intelligence, too funny.
 
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I have framed my only point multiple ways.
What is your point? That the genetic code can be abstracted? On this we have no argument.

Or is your point that the genetic code could not have evolved? I guess not, since you refuse to address this question.

Or is your point that any chemical processes involving a code are not "pure chemistry"? If so, we may agree or disagree depending on exactly what you're claiming.

So you're doing an awful lot of writing about something you don't want to make clear.

~~ Paul
 
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