If Catholisim were true, then what?

Discussion in 'Critical Discussions Among Proponents and Skeptics' started by soulatman, Jul 31, 2017.

  1. soulatman

    soulatman Member

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    I am posting this here because i just stumbled upon this question on one of my forays into the land of the web. It was a web link I clicked on, skim read through, and quickly and predictably ascertained it was a Catholic propaganda piece, designed to gently nudge those with doubts towards Catholism.

    The question made me chuckle synically.

    My synicism is because I already know the answer to what then, and it aint pretty! The horrific truth is, an unthinkable number of people roasting for an erternity. A more modern and hugely watered down version sees countless billions in a lesser or lower eternal realm, never able to reach the ultimate heights of the faithful, or to realise their true potential. They exist comfortably, but they screwed up their chance at perfection through lack of faith, so they are now forced to remain at this lesser state eternally.

    This has never made sense. The roasting version is very easy to revolt against, and similarly, the watered down version is too, but it surrepticiously hides it's injustice behind a facade of pleasantness.

    It occured to me that his whole judgment thing on any level is is simply ridiculous. It is childish, petty, and bourgoise.

    If this system is in place, and God is all wise, then it would follow he is also cruel, as any idiot can see, with a bit of thought, that you can't judge a host of individuals in radically different times, environments, cultural backgrounds along a singular and simple dimension of faith, or even goodness for that matter.

    To simplify this, lets say I had made a billion little robots with little wheels. I then decide I am going to sort out which ones are keepers, and which ones are not worth keeping, and my singular criteria for judging their worth is that they are able to travel a distance of 1000 meters before their battery runs out.

    Now if I am to truly test their worth against this criteria, and get a reliable picture of their worth, I must launch them all along the same type of surface. They can adequately be judged, ONLY if they have undergone IDENTICAL trials.

    It would make no sense to launch some on flat easy ground, some on gravel, some across active battlefields, others across mud, and others over mountains, snow etc etc. Yet this is exactly what God has supposedly done according to the Abrahamic faiths.

    If you think about the myriad different circumstances people are born into, some to total comfort, ease and security, others into utter sqaulid desperation and disease, filth and horror. How on earth can this single criteria of faith, or even doing the right thing, be a sufficient measuring stick?

    There are such huge differences of circumstance between us humans, such diverse starting points for each of us, that this simplified criteria makes no sense whatsoever.

    If this is in fact the set up, then it makes God either cruel, or dumb, and by definition God be neither of these things, in which case also by definition, this cannot be the set up. So, Catholicism is by definition, wrong.

    The question "If Catholicism were true, then what" is therefore utterly redundant, because it logically follows Catholism simply cannot be right.

    What do you all think? Am I missing something? Can the Catholic (or any Abrahamic) faith be redeemed?
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
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  2. I think you've hit the nail - that the common conception of damnation/salvation mechanics is really just a form of spiritual Nazism - on the head.
     
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  3. oleo

    oleo Member

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    A billion little robots, but each with the perception that they're all A little different from the other little robots.
    And
    only one path to redemption.
    How magnanimous.
     
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  4. erickh

    erickh New

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    There are hardly any thought systems that are totally devoid of truth. Everybody is at different mindsets so different teachings or thought systems can help certain people. Catholicism is obviously not an ultimate truth but can help certain people. Think of a criminal or other such low consciousness level person. Fear is probably the only thing that could probably motivate that type of person to begin to make a few changes and start to leave the worst of his actions behind. A fundamentalist type religion could help this person to progress. It's also obvious that once a person begins to raise their consciousness to a certain level fundamentalist type religion will do more harm than good.
     
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  5. Obiwan

    Obiwan Member

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    I'd have to eat my hat.
     
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  6. Brian_the_bard

    Brian_the_bard Lost Pilgrim Member

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    I should get working on that PDF. (Man I'm sooooooo lazy!)

    I'm not a big fan of Catholicism myself but I would rather not get involved in theological disputes. At least they believe in Jesus!
     
  7. soulatman

    soulatman Member

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    I like this alot. It is a very compassionate and accepting view of human failing and manipulation, although I am not sure I totally agree.
    There is an argument to be made for a gradual introduction of complex truths, rather than a plunge in at the deep end. As a silly example in my own life, I look forward to the day I can openly discuss the real state of the world with my sons, but as they are still children, I wouldn't dream of telling them that many or perhaps most politicians are liars and murderers, teachers often the biggest propogators of ignorance, 911 was an inside job, and oh so many more heavy truths. The difference here is I am not manipulating them with a lie, I am protecting them with a measured, gradual and timely introduction to truth.

    I studied psychology when i was younger, and I don't remember it as well as I would like, but there was a psycholgist called Kohlberg I think, who was interested in the issue of morality. Basically what motivated or supported people's decision to act in a moral fashion. He placed people in a few categories, which I broadly agreed with.

    Children he supposed mostly behaved well for fear of being punished. He speculated that if a child thought they could get away with an immoral act for their own gain without being caught, therefore without fear of punishment, then they probably would. Countless experiments have been conducted which broadly bore out his prediction. He placed repeat criminal offenders in this camp too, as having a similar moral sense as children do. Their morality then was purely based on or led by a fear of punishment. He called this pre conventional morality.

    Then in adulthood, most children will have learned a morality based upon social consensus, and their sense of self derives a sense of worth from feeling "good". Morality is based more upon relationships, and social convention. Most adults have a conventional sense of morality, which is again determined largely by social consensus. This he called Conventional morality.

    At the highest end of the spectrum were those who would act with the highest degree of morality in any and every situation, and would act in accord with their moral ideals even when it would result in their punishment. Their morals may actually conflict with social convention, for example a deep conviction that violence was always wrong would have been hugely problematic in ancient sparta I imagine. In fact, Jesus Christ himself embodies the very essence of this type of morality. These people have internalised a profoundly deep respect and understanding of certain ideals and values, and see them as not only central to their identity, but transcending their identity. As universal truths. These he called Post-Conventional moral thinkers.

    Now, I probably have done Kohlberg a disservice, and have done a very poor job of presenting his ideas, nvertheless, it is fairly obvious that people have degrees of morality, from highly simplistic and childish to deeply profound and philosophical.

    Now this really resonates with what you are saying, but being an aspiring post conventional moral thinker myself, I would have to say that blatant lies and manipulation can never be justified. You can't turn around after years of fear mongering and stories of firey pits and eternal pain and despair, and say, "sorry, I lied, I put you and generations of your family through psychological and spiritual torture, but i did it for your own good. I did it because I love you".

    Now a gradual introduction to truths is definately acceptable, perhaps even necessary and sensible, but a twisting of the truth cannot result in the good of anyone can it?
     
  8. erickh

    erickh New

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    I agree with you soulatman that a gradual introduction to truths is much preferable to blatant lies and twisting of truth. In an ideal world this would be the case. As I'm sure you're aware of we don't live in that kind of world.
    A spiritual teaching that is too far above the consciousness level of a given person doesn't appeal to him. He doesn't have the spiritual vision to recognize it's truth. Therefore more fundamentalist type religions can appeal to him and can be used to raise his consciousness to a certain level. At the same time these religions are used by other people for other selfish reasons.
     
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  9. E.Flowers

    E.Flowers New

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    ...then we are all going to hell.
     
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  10. soulatman

    soulatman Member

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    Well, at least we should be in some good company
     
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