If paranormal perception in near death experiences were 'proven' what would this mean?

#1
If paranormal perception in near death experiences were 'proven' what would this mean?

If paranormal perception during near death experiences were proven what would this mean, what model of the universe would this support?
 
#3
Well often parapsychologists have the problem that even if they have statistical evidence of an effect they have no mechanism of action. I am just wondering what the mechanism of action of OBE clairvoyance would be.
 
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#4
Well often parapsychologists have the problem that even if they have statistical evidence of an effect they have mechanism of action. am just wonderig what the mechanism of action of OBE clairvoyance would be.
I'm glad you elaborated, because this thread could have gone in a completely different direction.
As for this new question there's only one answer. The answer is, nobody has a frickin clue.
Welcome to this forum.
 
#5
Some of the perceptions appear to be really convincing, they don't really provide evidence for life after death, but maybe they provide evidence that our reality isn't real.
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#6
I'm glad you elaborated, because this thread could have gone in a completely different direction.
As for this new question there's only one answer. The answer is, nobody has a frickin clue.
Welcome to this forum.
These guys seem to have some possible clues.

In fact I believe the existence of immaterialist models has been pointed out to you several times, but just like your buddy Trump you haven't let reality get in the way of pushing your agenda. :D

OTOH as Sam Harris, one of the New Atheist "4 horsemen" points out, trying to explain consciousness via materialism is nonsensical.

"To say “Everything came out of nothing” is to assert a brute fact that defies our most basic intuitions of cause and effect—a miracle, in other words.
Likewise, the idea that consciousness is identical to (or emerged from) unconscious physical events is, I would argue, impossible to properly conceive—which is to say that we can think we are thinking it, but we are mistaken. We can say the right words, of course—“consciousness emerges from unconscious information processing.” We can also say “Some squares are as round as circles” and “2 plus 2 equals 7.”

But are we really thinking these things all the way through? I don’t think so."

I guess now Harris will be a "damn fool", or maybe you'll use the term "woo monger".
 
#7
If paranormal perception in near death experiences were 'proven' what would this mean?

If paranormal perception during near death experiences were proven what would this mean, what model of the universe would this support?

It would prove perception involves a possible nonphysical mechanism, either a disembodied consciousness made the observation, which would be the more parsimonious explanation if not for the entrenched physicalistic bias of the scientific establishment, or super-psi perception. Frankly, there hasn't been any satisfactory materialistic explanation of the full spectrum of NDE since Blackmore's outdated dying brain hypothesis. And even if there were, it wouldn't automatically falsify the survival hypothesis. Think of a "Flatland" scenario, where objects or people in a higher dimension can always perceive things in the lower dimensions, while the reverse applies only in rare instances eg. NDE,
OBE or psychic experiences. Events that bridge these two domains, spiritual and material, can leave traces in the material world, for instance increased electrical activity at the moment of death, like a hypercube in the fourth dimension casting the shadow of a cube in the third dimension. The members of the lower dimension, or physical, interpret these phenomena as occuring only in their world, having no experience of other realities, which is altogether a rational approach, but narrow minded in the end.
 
#8
The members of the lower dimension, or physical, interpret these phenomena as occuring only in their world, having no experience of other realities, which is altogether a rational approach, but narrow minded in the end.
It appears irrational to me.
 
#9
It would prove perception involves a possible nonphysical mechanism, either a disembodied consciousness made the observation, which would be the more parsimonious explanation if not for the entrenched physicalistic bias of the scientific establishment, or super-psi perception. Frankly, there hasn't been any satisfactory materialistic explanation of the full spectrum of NDE since Blackmore's outdated dying brain hypothesis. And even if there were, it wouldn't automatically falsify the survival hypothesis. Think of a "Flatland" scenario, where objects or people in a higher dimension can always perceive things in the lower dimensions, while the reverse applies only in rare instances eg. NDE,
OBE or psychic experiences. Events that bridge these two domains, spiritual and material, can leave traces in the material world, for instance increased electrical activity at the moment of death, like a hypercube in the fourth dimension casting the shadow of a cube in the third dimension. The members of the lower dimension, or physical, interpret these phenomena as occuring only in their world, having no experience of other realities, which is altogether a rational approach, but narrow minded in the end.
Even so why is that not physical. Perhaps these words,"materialism, physical, physicalism, are defined too narrowly.
 
#10
Even so why is that not physical. Perhaps these words,"materialism, physical, physicalism, are defined too narrowly.

Physicalism represents the philosophical position which in essence states that reality is represented only by the physical world and it derives its influence to the immense success of physics in describing the physical world. It is a monistic ontology, opposed to idealism or dualism.

Veridical OBE perception, psychic experiences or any other psi phenomena will seriously challenge this position, since it will involve a mechanism beyond the five physical senses, a sixth sense if you will. You can see here why psi and NDE research is seriously opposed by skeptics and the scientific community in general, since it invalidates their ontological consensus or worldview, which is physicalism or materialism, no matter how open minded they claim to be. The unpredictable and erratic nature of these phenomena relating to consciousness precludes replication, a powerful tool of verificating any hypothesis in the physical sciences. So we are left with anecdotes and some research, such as the ganzfeld that indicates something interesting is going on, but these lines of evidence will never pass the rigid high standards of evidence imposed by science as it is currently practiced.
 
#11
So we are left with anecdotes and some research, such as the ganzfeld that indicates something interesting is going on, but these lines of evidence will never pass the rigid high standards of evidence imposed by science as it is currently practiced.
But Wiseman has agreed that by the rigid high standards of evidence imposed by science as it is currently practiced, PSI is already proved. The issue is that sceptics want to introduce some additional criteria, which means PSI can always be denied. It isn't about science, it hasn't been for a long time now. Rather it is about avoiding doing science.
 
#12
But Wiseman has agreed that by the rigid high standards of evidence imposed by science as it is currently practiced, PSI is already proved. The issue is that sceptics want to introduce some additional criteria, which means PSI can always be denied. It isn't about science, it hasn't been for a long time now. Rather it is about avoiding doing science.

Yes, I heard this several times during skeptiko interviews. Curiously, in his book Paranormality he always comes up with mundane explanations for purported psychic experiences, many times stretching the truth or simply relying on his fellow skeptics research. Susan Blackmore does the same, although she may agree her research is outdated and flawed when pressed, she will nevertheless present the opposite conclusion at skeptic conferences. Typical group mentality, grounded on evolutionary grounds most likely. It takes great courage and effort to risk changing a worldview that will alienate you from your social network.


The problem with the research Wiseman was referring to(I don't know if it was the ganzfeld, Sheldrake's dog telepathy or Bem's presentiment) is that no theory or mechanism was postulated that would explain the findings, that may be one of the reasons for the obstinate refusal to acknowledge the data. If the mechanism is nonphysical or can't be verified by physical instruments, and I think that may be the case, then acceptance of the existence of telepathy, precognition etc. will be stalled indefinitely.
 
#13
Physicalism represents the philosophical position which in essence states that reality is represented only by the physical world and it derives its influence to the immense success of physics in describing the physical world. It is a monistic ontology, opposed to idealism or dualism.
And that's the problem with signing on to an ism like this. Just by associating with it you begin to bias yourself into defending such and such as the "only". Physicalism, idealism, dualism - they lock people in. Instead, why not say "we've discovered this stuff and we're exploring the properties of it, we'll continue to do that but also be on the lookout for other stuff that might be out there."

Veridical OBE perception, psychic experiences or any other psi phenomena will seriously challenge this position, since it will involve a mechanism beyond the five physical senses, a sixth sense if you will. You can see here why psi and NDE research is seriously opposed by skeptics and the scientific community in general, since it invalidates their ontological consensus or worldview, which is physicalism or materialism, no matter how open minded they claim to be. The unpredictable and erratic nature of these phenomena relating to consciousness precludes replication, a powerful tool of verificating any hypothesis in the physical sciences. So we are left with anecdotes and some research, such as the ganzfeld that indicates something interesting is going on, but these lines of evidence will never pass the rigid high standards of evidence imposed by science as it is currently practiced.
I think you might be thinking of replication too narrowly. You don't need to have the precision of theoretical and practical physics to achieve replication. In fact, outside of physics few sciences have that degree of exactitude. The problems with Ganzfeld are not that these experiments aren't replicable in principle. There's no reason to consider these lines of research incapable of reaching high reliability standards. Frankly, what it needs most is money, though for some items (like isolating psi as a variable) it may need some added cleverness. But in most other headings it simply needs resources and good study design and research practices, including detailed pre-registration.
 
#14
But Wiseman has agreed that by the rigid high standards of evidence imposed by science as it is currently practiced, PSI is already proved. The issue is that sceptics want to introduce some additional criteria, which means PSI can always be denied. It isn't about science, it hasn't been for a long time now. Rather it is about avoiding doing science.
Careful with that. Parapsychology needs to raise the bar, but not because it requires extra high standards imposed arbitrarily by skeptics! The standards that Wiseman was comparing parapsychology to is psychology. It has become clear that for awhile psychology standards have not been all that rigid or high - and they are feeling the brunt of it. And they are not alone.

See this article by Kennedy on exactly this: Is the Methodological Revolution in Psychology Over or Just Beginning? (2016).
 
#15
Physicalism represents the philosophical position which in essence states that reality is represented only by the physical world and it derives its influence to the immense success of physics in describing the physical world. It is a monistic ontology, opposed to idealism or dualism.

Veridical OBE perception, psychic experiences or any other psi phenomena will seriously challenge this position, since it will involve a mechanism beyond the five physical senses, a sixth sense if you will. You can see here why psi and NDE research is seriously opposed by skeptics and the scientific community in general, since it invalidates their ontological consensus or worldview, which is physicalism or materialism, no matter how open minded they claim to be. The unpredictable and erratic nature of these phenomena relating to consciousness precludes replication, a powerful tool of verificating any hypothesis in the physical sciences. So we are left with anecdotes and some research, such as the ganzfeld that indicates something interesting is going on, but these lines of evidence will never pass the rigid high standards of evidence imposed by science as it is currently practiced.
Let's say ghosts which represent the spiritual immaterial world are proven to be real, would that make them any less physical than a photon, the weak force or you? I feel the use of two particular isms are too rigid.
 
#16
I am using philosophical jargon more as a convenience to illustrate the different viewpoints that are out there, since I too believe reality is far more complicated than it appears. My best guess is a sort of idealist many layered filter hypothesis, where reality is like an onion with many strata that sometimes mingle with one another but are distinct in terms of properties, with consciousness being probably fundamental, although I have some reservations on how we define consciousness or individual selves. You have the physical world, the universe with its 12 or 26 dimensions and possibly a multiverse of universes with different properties + Everett's many worlds hypothesis with its infinite array of universes derived from the wave function not collapsing into one reality but two. Then you have the so called "astral planes" or locales in Monroe's terminology with their own strange characteristics and entities(there's so much to discuss here), then you have the DMT realms of self transforming machine elves and alien insectoids(Terence Mckenna and Rick Strassman), the Dharmadatu, Nirvana or Summerland were few mystics have claimed to have visited, and maybe some NDErs where you are closest to what an Universal God Intelligence Cosmic Consciousness might be. And the list goes on and on. Good luck making sense of all of this. The materialist or skeptic will instantly cry woowoo, delusion, hallucination because obviously it is difficult to grapple and accept that these things might exist.


On another note, it would be interesting to see if poltergeist activity can be shown to exist. There you have a seemingly nonphysical force influencing things in physical reality.
 
#17
A report on research outcomes observed that parapsychology had high quality research than psychology. Replicability is a problem for science, medicine's replicability standards are generally abysmal, despite being immensely well funded.
 
#19
I am using philosophical jargon more as a convenience to illustrate the different viewpoints that are out there, since I too believe reality is far more complicated than it appears. My best guess is a sort of idealist many layered filter hypothesis, where reality is like an onion with many strata that sometimes mingle with one another but are distinct in terms of properties, with consciousness being probably fundamental, although I have some reservations on how we define consciousness or individual selves. You have the physical world, the universe with its 12 or 26 dimensions and possibly a multiverse of universes with different properties + Everett's many worlds hypothesis with its infinite array of universes derived from the wave function not collapsing into one reality but two. Then you have the so called "astral planes" or locales in Monroe's terminology with their own strange characteristics and entities(there's so much to discuss here), then you have the DMT realms of self transforming machine elves and alien insectoids(Terence Mckenna and Rick Strassman), the Dharmadatu, Nirvana or Summerland were few mystics have claimed to have visited, and maybe some NDErs where you are closest to what an Universal God Intelligence Cosmic Consciousness might be. And the list goes on and on. Good luck making sense of all of this. The materialist or skeptic will instantly cry woowoo, delusion, hallucination because obviously it is difficult to grapple and accept that these things might exist.


On another note, it would be interesting to see if poltergeist activity can be shown to exist. There you have a seemingly nonphysical force influencing things in physical reality.
Just to clarify woo woo. It's not that skeptics outright reject such things it's the way such things are presented: first a conclusion is reached then one reasons their way to it. Have you seen examples?
 
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