Inter flat-worm memory transfer through cannibalism

#1
Are you guys familiar with this. I just heard about it and started looking into it. Apparently, worms were shown a Y shaped maze and via electrical shock were prompted to turn right. Eventually, the learned this behavior and turned right. Then, they fed the learned worms to un-learned worms and found that the unlearned worms eventually learned to turn right much faster after they had eaten the learned worms. It was a very large study undertaken by many independent people. I hope I just presented the study right in that paragraph as I have just began reading about it.

http://www.reed.edu/biology/courses/BIO101/renn/intro_web/labs/hartry_1964.pdf
 
#3
I don't know what causes these phenomena. But I don't see a contradiction to having memories stored physically in the body and believing in survival of personality after death. People who think there is a contradiction are making assumptions for which they have no evidence.
 
#4
I don't know what causes these phenomena. But I don't see a contradiction to having memories stored physically in the body and believing in survival of personality after death. People who think there is a contradiction are making assumptions for which they have no evidence.
Nah no way could it prove that. Its very interesting though.
 
#6
I don't know what causes these phenomena. But I don't see a contradiction to having memories stored physically in the body and believing in survival of personality after death. People who think there is a contradiction are making assumptions for which they have no evidence.
The only thing is that people have pointed out the problems with the concept that memory is stored in a physical form, for example Rupert Sheldrake does so in his book:

http://opensciences.org/open-questions/are-memories-stored-as-traces-in-brains

It is also discussed in Irreducible Mind.

Also, after enormous effort, no explanation of human memory has been discovered, even though damage to certain locations in the brain can lead to an inability to lay down new memories and/or remember stuff.

I take it as probably true that organ transplants do transfer some memories - because these extraordinary reports seem so unexpected, and yet in one case, as I remember, the donor's murderer was caught using hints from the recipient's extra memories.

My cynical approach to science tells me that the flat worm research might be less reliable - there have been claims about the physical location of memory before.

The interesting question is what is going on in the organ (mainly heart) transplant cases!

Maybe when a person partly dies and partly carries on living, that confuses the process of DE followed by reincarnation that we tend to think happens!

From a materialist point of view, I think transplant memories are really hard to understand. The problem is that memories are supposed to be stored in neural nets that adjust statistically to incoming data. These nets should be unique to each person - so my NN for a can of beer might be just white noise to you - or even represent a teddy bear! This is also a problem for materialistic explanations of telepathy.

David
 
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#7
I think it’s probably a psychic connection of some sort. If somebody who dies has living tissue that goes on, part of their ego could very well stil be attached to it as they were already attached to it previously. Consciousness seems to have many layers.
 
#8
The only thing is that people have pointed out the problems with the concept that memory is stored in a physical form, for example Rupert Sheldrake does so in his book:
It seems to me these objections to physical memory are offered because they think it contradicts survival of personality after death. Or they are based on philosophical arguments. But philosophers can disagree which is why I think you have to consider the empirical evidence and form your theory from empirical evidence not philosophy. It is a huge but very common mistake to ignore empirical evidence that conflicts with a philosophy.

There is a variety of evidence that shows memory continues after death, that it is not (always) stored in the brain, and that it is stored in some physical form.

So to me it seems like all these data have to be combined into a theory: Memory is not all physical, it is not all non-physical.

I don't believe there is a complete theory that explains all the evidence, but one explanation I have read is that the spirit body is a cell for cell duplicate of the physical body.

That would explain some of the data from spirit surgery:

http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2014/12/zerdinis-world-article-on-george-chapman.html
Zerdini's World Article on George Chapman


George Chapman was a British spiritual healer who provided many amazing cures. When he healed people, he would go into a trance and the spirit of a deceased doctor, William Lang, would take over his body. Dr. Lang would then use Chapman's body to operate on the spirit body of the patient. The spirit body of the patient would influence the physical body and the patient would be cured.

The following excerpts are from the article on George Chapman at Zerdini's World.
The Daily Telegraph published the following obituary:

George Chapman

12:01AM BST 12 Aug 2006
Chapman's "surgery" on his patients was carried out on their spirit (or etheric) bodies, from which the benefits were transferred to the subjects' physical bodies. Sceptics may have scoffed, but Chapman's supporters point to many astonishing healings achieved. He is credited with curing an inoperable and malignant brain tumour, among other cancers, as well as with improving various eye conditions and even lengthening a patient's leg. Chapman himself maintained that the purpose of his healing mission was to prove that there was life after death; the healings, he said, were secondary.
...

THE MEDIUMSHIP OF HEALER GEORGE CHAPMAN

By David Nicholls Ph.D

...

Dr Lang advised George that his mediumship would relate to the work of healing, and furthermore, he would have the principal role in George's activity. The significant feature about Dr Lang was that, unlike many other guides and controls whose pre-mortem existence cannot be verified, he had lived in Britain in the twentieth century, and George therefore went to great lengths to verify this. George argues that verification of identity is of major importance: 'The spirit communicator should speak as near as possible to the way he spoke on earth, using the same phrases and mannerisms and manifesting personal characteristics. He should be able to give dates, names and details of his earthly experiences that can be verified, and be able to discuss intimate matters with relatives and colleagues still on earth'. And indeed, George reports that, 'William Lang, however, satisfied all my demands', and he was able to contact people, both colleagues of Dr Lang and the people whom he had treated, and, 'they confirmed it was the same Dr Lang they had known'.

...

During the spirit operations that were carried out by Dr Lang, it was noticed that he operated with his left hand, while George is right-handed; furthermore, a tremor was observed. On making enquiries, it was ascertained that Dr Lang, before he died, did in fact suffer from tremors, and as this was less of a problem in his left hand, he tended to use this hand when carrying out surgery.

...

Surely one of the most important statements concerning Dr Lang's continuing activity through George, is the one made by his own daughter, Marie Lyndon Lang: 'an active and very well-educated woman with a level-headed approach to life and death' . After meeting George, and seeing him regularly for many years, and speaking with Dr Lang while George was entranced, she was only too willing to make the following crucial statement: 'I can truthfully say the William Lang who operates via the body of George Chapman is, without a doubt, my father'. In addition to speaking with her father through George's mediumship, she was also able to do this with her mother and Basil. George regularly met Dr Lang's daughter together with a group of friends and medical contemporaries of Basil Lang, who also knew William Lang, and they 'questioned and tested' both George and Dr Lang. Of these occasions, Dr Lang's daughter stated: 'We could only come to one conclusion: that the person who speaks through George Chapman and claims to be William Lang is, without a doubt, my father...It is a fact that William Lang, my father, is as much alive today'. Noteworthy is the fact that it was Dr Lang's daughter and this group of persons who encouraged George to take up healing full-time, which he did in 1957.

...

Confidence is also expressed by the Revd Allan Barham, a experienced member of the SPR and Churches' Fellowship for Psychical and Spiritual Studies. On meeting George, he observed that the man with whom he spoke when George was entranced, 'had the appearance, voice and mannerisms of an elderly doctor of a generation earlier. He was obviously a cultured man with an extensive vocabulary'. Moreover, Barham remarked on how he understood, 'that a number of William Lang's former colleagues recognised him in George Chapman when the latter was in trance, and would meet him regularly...Sometimes they would even bring their patients for consultation and treatment'.

...

Hutton then details how Dr Lang explained what he was about to do and said that he would operate with the assistance of Basil and other colleagues: 'He came across to the edge of the couch and then lifted his hands and started to move them, and flick his fingers just above my eyes. His own eyes stayed tightly closed. The fingers of his hands opened and shut as though taking and using instruments'. Hutton comments that after Dr Lang had explained what he had done, that: 'Incredible as it may seem, I began to experience the physical sensation of incisions bring made. They were painless, but none the less capable of being felt. The man's eyes never opened, and he did not touch me'. Further surgery was carried out, at this point for the virus, and yet again, Hutton could feel instruments being used, albeit painless.

...

He continues by recounting how further surprises were in store when undressing that night, and he noticed 'a long mark, a thick line about five inches long', that 'looked exactly like the scar of a surgical incision just as if I had had an operation on my liver'.

...
Interview with Dr Lang - Guide of George Chapman

By George Cranley - January 1999

On a recent visit to George Chapman, while in the treatment room, I seized the opportunity to question Dr Lang about his method of entrancement. Here are his tape-recorded answers:

Q: Dr Lang, for over fifty years you have been working through George Chapman - how do you take control of the medium?

A: Quite simply, George spends a little time relaxing before he starts really working. He starves himself for the weekend. So he just has tea and water and maybe a small sandwich in the evening. He prepares his body and all that happens is that he is here half an hour before the patients to get himself into a relaxed state and then I start to move towards him and take over the physical body as his own spirit starts to move out.

Q: Is this a very complicated process?

A:What happens is, as George sees me moving towards him, it is as though he is being suffocated and starts to doze off and then from behind the eyes a pressure is exerted from the rod and cones to the bulbar part of the brain so the brain is deadened.

For instance, if you look at the light and you move your hand you pick up light reflections which are transmitted through to the brain so you don't actually feel that the eyes are light vibrations. So I exert pressure here (indicating the back of the head) so that his own spirit gradually moves out until the end of the healing session because he has to stay in trance this way for the whole period of time.

Q: What exactly can you see?

For instance, I can't see your machine, can't see the couch, I can't see anything that is of the material. I can only see the spirit of the object or person.


I can move around the room but I like everything fixed in a way that suits me. Where George is right-handed I operate left-handed so the couch must be for left- handed persons (the couch is flush with the wall so it can only be used by a left-handed person). At the end of today when I suppose I should have about thirty-odd patients and tomorrow there is a coach with about forty, I understand, from Holland, it will be trance throughout. I control George's body today till about 3.30 pm (approx. five hours) I suppose.

With patients I am rather quick to perform my operations but at the end of the trance Michael (George Chapman's son) will first come in talk with me, say it is all finished, he may ask me a few questions and then I gradually withdraw from George's body. His own spirit then will move strongly with the raised vibration from the Spirit World back into his own body and he starts to become at one with himself. It could take him two hours or more to recover.

Q: When you take control are there a group of people helping you to take control?

A: I have the team. Outside you see a brass plate with various names on it and these medical gentlemen, contemporaries of my son Basil most of them, and they, of course, made a contract for George going back to 1947 but they first met up with him in 1946 to talk with me in a general way. George used to travel to London each Thursday in the month for them to carry out various studies of George when in trance. There was Sir Alexander Cannon who used to try to get across from the Isle of Man and those people have now passed into this life, medical men who worked with me at London, The Middlesex, are still practising with me today. We are a team and so, if I have a patient with say an eye problem, I will call upon one of the oculists.
 
#9
Rupert Sheldrake discusses similar phenomena in his book The Science Delusion. His concept of biomorphic fields for communicating this type of information is interesting and doesn’t rely on cannibalism lol.
 
#10
I don't believe there is a complete theory that explains all the evidence, but one explanation I have read is that the spirit body is a cell for cell duplicate of the physical body.
The thing is, duplicating things doesn't really explain anything - it just creates additional complication.

A computer programmer could use grep search a lot of text files for the occurrence of the name Barbara. However, suppose he wanted to search them for a sad poem , or a poem about fish, or an example of a fallacious argument? Sure, if these were categories into which the data has been pre-sorted - no problem - but that would reduce a person's memory to something akin to computer memory.

You might try to store the information together with some 'meta-data' to help in recall, but then you would have to find the meta-data, etc etc.

I think the analogy between human (or animal) memory and computer memory, is simultaneously attractive and deeply misleading.

David
 
#11
Seemingly the most credible of psychics (ie-those who have solved cases for police departments etc) seem to operate better when they are holding an object which the person in question (victim) owns. How much more effective would this be if you were actually hosting a living organ of that person? That very well may render psychic capabilities to people who otherwise do not seem to have any ability
 
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