Mod+ Is the Bible a political con job? This scholar says the proof is right in front of us |289|

#21
One detail I picked up on in this interview that for some reason I hadn't caught on before was Atwill's repeated insistence on the significance of the "Son of Man" references in the Gospel. He makes it sounds like Jesus is explicitly referring to someone else (which Atwill takes to mean the Flavian emperor) when mentioning the "Son of Man". I don't have the time or the inclination right down to read the NT and study this, but I'd be curious to know if someone else has made the case that Jesus is referring to someone else rather than himself here, and what scholars usually do with the utterance of this phrase.
I had the same question.
 
#22
Probably to further different socio-political-cultural agendas - though likely not the agenda that Atwill thinks.
thx Ian... you're the first on the forum, comments, or FB to answer this question. I've thought a lot about this and pressed Atwill pretty hard on this topic. Atwill has won me over on this. It's hard for me to imagine a scenario where their agenda isn't pro-Roman.
 
#23
That seems to have been "deliberately hidden" as well. ;)

Back to this show: I like it. I got a chance to listen to the whole unedited thing and now am half-way listening to the edit (good job there, Alex!). I think it gives Alex a chance to get to the heart of what interests him with Atwill and this topic, while stating where he doesn't necessarily follow Atwill in the whole scope and details of his theory.
This appears to have been edited since first posted, unless I'm remembering stuff you never said. If I'm right, I'm intrigued: why did you edit out the bit about "Craig" referring to our overzealous moderator? Is there some kind of taboo about that?
 
#24
Conspiracy theories and Christianity! Two of may favorite subjects! This is going to be a good one :)

As I posted elsewhere recently:

Conspiracy theories explained:
1) Most people who exercise power and authority do not act alone. They conspire with others for more effective coordinated action.
2) Information is a commodity, and controlling the narrative is the origin of all authority. Those who exercise power must be as shrewd with information and narration as they are with money and capital - otherwise they won't remain in power long.
3) All hierarchical systems are filters or mechanisms that sort the constituents by their qualities. All systems of commerce and government are hierarchies that filter intelligent ambitious psychopaths to the top.
 
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#25
Listened to the edited version twice (on 1.5x speed) and the full version once. Really enjoyed it - especially the full version! And just ordered "Caesar's Messiah" from Amazon.

I'm in full agreement with the conspiratorial approach: when money and power are involved, start with the conspiracy angle and work out from there while remaining skeptical of all narratives that benefit the oligarchs. "Author-ity" is gained by authoring a narrative that creates the desired meaning through which people will interpret events and that creates the desired societal structures and actions. It is not the oligarch with the biggest army that wins more authority; it is the oligarch that unites forces with a common narrative that wins more power. In our faux-democracy, it is the politician that authors and articulates the most favored story (authorized by the oligarchs) that wins the authority of the office.

There is a hopelessly entangled knot tying together Semites, Ashkenazi Jews, Kabbalah, Islam, Christianity, Satanism, Rome, Babylon, Egypt, Hermeticism, secret societies, ancient astro-theology, the occult, and the power politics of human history. Untangling this knot is a monumental process, but I believe it is a necessary process if humanity is ever going to extricate itself from the nested layers of controls over the body and mind perpetuated by the psychopathic elites.

I think now is a crucial time to gain a better understanding of what happened 2000 years ago and how we got to where we are today because the processes of religious destruction and re-creation are once again at work. As we exit the age of Pisces, Roman Catholic Christianity is beginning to abandon the Jesus fish... what will replace Jesus? If the oligarchs did indeed create the gospels as a narrative to be used for social control, then we can expect the modern day oligarchs to be working on a new narrative and a new "good shepherd" that will take the baton from Christianity and goad the sheeple into their pens for the next 2160 years. What will the myth-mongers come up with next? Are they riding out modern interpretations of apocalyptic prophecies regarding the end of the age as a road-map for the destruction and re-creation of the world order? Will aliens be our newly invented gods? There are hints of that.
 
#26
I find the subject interesting, but has so far not been persuaded by Joseph Atwill (having listened to the edited interview and half of the unedited one). I haven't got a grasp about the similarities between Josephus' writings and the gospels, yet, so I can't comment on that part. I'll finish listening to the unedited show to see if he lays out those examples more clearly.
One comment that I'd like to make before finishing the unedited version: to take the position that the pacifist messiah is an invention of the Romans, seems to me to grossly underestimate the depth of the message of Jesus (as portrayed in the gospels). The power of this message is possibly most visible in non-violent movements such as the ones lead by Gandhi and Martin Luther King (both extremely inspired by Jesus). Which would surely be an irony of fate if this message was put together in order to create law-abiding citizens accepting authority.

I have been trying to find a debate/discussion between Atwill and someone disagreeing with him, but have been unable to find that online. Can anybody provide a link to something like that?

(I might add that I'm in no way defending the Church. Not it's dogma, nor it's actions.)
 
#27
One comment that I'd like to make before finishing the unedited version: to take the position that the pacifist messiah is an invention of the Romans, seems to me to grossly underestimate the depth of the message of Jesus (as portrayed in the gospels). The power of this message is possibly most visible in non-violent movements such as the ones lead by Gandhi and Martin Luther King (both extremely inspired by Jesus). Which would surely be an irony of fate if this message was put together in order to create law-abiding citizens accepting authority.
This is a good point. How do we explain the positive morals, the anti-authoritarian pacifist ethics, and the potentially mind freeing gnostic principles found in the gospels if it was an entirely cynical concoction designed to perpetuate the power of the oligarchy? If the gospels were designed to maintain a narrative that kept the sheeple penned, why was the actual text of the Bible generally withheld from the public at large until Martin Luther got it out there to the masses?

Perhaps the Bible was not an entirely cynical concoction, but a mixture of esoteric wisdom, astro-theological memes, and politically beneficial "prophesy." If a myth-monger wanted to infect a population with an ideology, he would need his ideology and myth to contain a certain amount of beneficial truths to resonate with suffering souls and set up a symbiotic relationship with the host individuals/institutions. An ideology that provides no benefit for its host will die out.

It makes sense then that the Bible would contain layers of meanings and effects...

Matthew 13:10-13 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
 
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#28
There is a hopelessly entangled knot tying together Semites, Ashkenazi Jews, Kabbalah, Islam, Christianity, Satanism, Rome, Babylon, Egypt, Hermeticism, secret societies, ancient astro-theology, the occult, and the power politics of human history. Untangling this knot is a monumental process, but I believe it is a necessary process if humanity is ever going to extricate itself from the nested layers of controls over the body and mind perpetuated by the psychopathic elites.
nice.
 
#29
I find the subject interesting, but has so far not been persuaded by Joseph Atwill (having listened to the edited interview and half of the unedited one). I haven't got a grasp about the similarities between Josephus' writings and the gospels, yet, so I can't comment on that part. I'll finish listening to the unedited show to see if he lays out those examples more clearly.
you won't find this in this interview, but you'll get a lot of it here:

One comment that I'd like to make before finishing the unedited version: to take the position that the pacifist messiah is an invention of the Romans, seems to me to grossly underestimate the depth of the message of Jesus
agreed... and in general I don't think we should swallow Atwill's theory whole... but it certainly points us in the right direction.
 
#30
I listened to the interview and then watched the video that Alex added here where Atwill describes a little more in detail his theory and I remain unconvinced. The Bible I believe is a very complicated document. To take it as 100% literal truth is insane. It was undoubtedly manipulated by the oligarchs as Atwill contends but it is much more complicated than that I believe.

I believe Jesus was a historical person. The apostle Paul wrote all his letters before the appearance of Titus and Paul very much believed in a historical Jesus and so did many others according to Paul's writings. Were some of Jesus' actions and sayings changed to a degree by later writers and compilers? I would say without a doubt. No doubt portions were taken out that openly opposed the oligarchs. Later when the Bible canon was set whole books were discarded.

My thoughts are that a truly enlightened person named Jesus appeared on the scene in the first century. The Jews had a belief of a warrior like Messiah. To convince people to listen to him he purposely did or said things that would make people think he was the Messiah or later the gospel writers embellished the stories to convince their readers that he was the Messiah. Jesus didn't write anything down himself since he wanted his disciples to get truth internally (John 14:26 ; 16:13)

The teachings and actions of Jesus circulate orally for decades. As with all oral stories things change to a degree over time. The teachings and actions are then written down as the gospels. These are also changed, edited, or added to. Perhaps "prophecies" are added in after the fact to give them more appeal. Then gradually but certainly by Constantine's time Jesus' message of "the kingdom of God is within you" is co-opted by the oligarchs who taught the common people that they needed a go between them and God namely the church and that the king was God's representative.
 
#31
you won't find this in this interview, but you'll get a lot of it here:


agreed... and in general I don't think we should swallow Atwill's theory whole... but it certainly points us in the right direction.
Thank you. Very interesting. Yes, there seems to be too many similarities for it to be coincidental.
I'll be contemplating on this for a long time forward, I'm sure.

That Romans with power used the historical person of Jesus (useful because he was viewed by many as messiah, but still had a more peaceful approach than many others), to weave together a narrative that portrays the messiah as a mirror image of Titus Flavius, when the gospels were put together, seems to me to be a sensible stance to take.

From this perspective (the somewhat conspiratorial one), I think that it is easy to understand why a book like the Gospel of Thomas could never make it into the Bible. Although an old book with over a hundred sayings of Jesus (many of them found in the other gospels, others unique to this text), it has nothing of these similarities with Titus, as far as I can see (perhaps with the exception of the "division of 5 into 2 and 3"-verse :)).
 
#32
Thank you. Very interesting. Yes, there seems to be too many similarities for it to be coincidental.
I'll be contemplating on this for a long time forward, I'm sure.

That Romans with power used the historical person of Jesus (useful because he was viewed by many as messiah, but still had a more peaceful approach than many others), to weave together a narrative that portrays the messiah as a mirror image of Titus Flavius, when the gospels were put together, seems to me to be a sensible stance to take.

From this perspective (the somewhat conspiratorial one), I think that it is easy to understand why a book like the Gospel of Thomas could never make it into the Bible. Although an old book with over a hundred sayings of Jesus (many of them found in the other gospels, others unique to this text), it has nothing of these similarities with Titus, as far as I can see (perhaps with the exception of the "division of 5 into 2 and 3"-verse :)).
Thanks, Opti, for bringing up the Gospel of Thomas. That was at the back of my mind while I read the thread, but then I thought, wait... It was not included in the canon. I wonder why.... Hmmm?
 
#33
I listened to the interview and then watched the video that Alex added here where Atwill describes a little more in detail his theory and I remain unconvinced. The Bible I believe is a very complicated document. To take it as 100% literal truth is insane. It was undoubtedly manipulated by the oligarchs as Atwill contends but it is much more complicated than that I believe.
agreed... but in order to get to that last part we have to really let the first part sink in.




I believe Jesus was a historical person.
maybe, but the evidence suggests that if he did exist he was probably like his brother James .

the evidence also suggests that he didn't have to exist in order to give us all that we have when it comes to the Christian experience... i.e. Spirit/God/consciousness seems to find a way regardless. to me this is the big, big point that gets lost in all this.
 
#34
From this perspective (the somewhat conspiratorial one), I think that it is easy to understand why a book like the Gospel of Thomas could never make it into the Bible. Although an old book with over a hundred sayings of Jesus (many of them found in the other gospels, others unique to this text), it has nothing of these similarities with Titus, as far as I can see (perhaps with the exception of the "division of 5 into 2 and 3"-verse :)).
The Gospel of Thomas is awesome... great... inspired spiritual wisdom... it is the divine spark of Gnosis shinning thru. But can we be sure it's uniquely tied to this time and this person. Seems to me that it works equally well as a something that was ascribed to Jesus.
 
#35
There is a hopelessly entangled knot tying together Semites, Ashkenazi Jews, Kabbalah, Islam, Christianity, Satanism, Rome, Babylon, Egypt, Hermeticism, secret societies, ancient astro-theology, the occult, and the power politics of human history. Untangling this knot is a monumental process, but I believe it is a necessary process if humanity is ever going to extricate itself from the nested layers of controls over the body and mind perpetuated by the psychopathic elites.
Here is my [brief] attempt at untangling the knot...

6-12 thousand years ago a civilization flourished that was to some degree advanced technologically though they had made more progress exploring "inner space" than outer space. An ontology was developed that recognized the mental nature (thought - Thoth) of the universe and linked the mental subjective nature with the apparently objective external nature which today is vaguely approximated by hermetic teachings and sacred geometry. This knowledge was enshrined and preserved in the proportions of astrologically aligned and geometrically proportioned architecture and megalithic monuments. This civilization engaged in commerce throughout the world. There may have been some sort of genetic manipulation at this time that produced giants.

This civilization also assigned great meaning to the movement of the heavenly bodies and used astro-theological myths to organize their understanding of the movements of the heavenly bodies, explain their origins, and embed mentalist esoteric teachings in a form the common man could remember. Gradually this civilization became corrupt and rotted while climate change and natural disasters forced mass migrations that wiped out large portions of this civilization. The largest remnants survived in Babylon and Egypt.

Members of the Babylonian and Egyptian elite took their knowledge and separated from these societies to form the Israelite civilization which spread much farther and wider over the earth than we are led to believe. Possibly due to prior genetic manipulation or just the ordinary human tendency towards racism, the Israelites sometimes tried to exterminate neighboring tribes and kingdoms. Their laws contained a mixture of prior Babylonian and Egyptian law, hermetic deep teachings, and astrotheological myths, mixed with cultural laws that served to separate them from their predecessors and their surrounding neighbors and also to make them xenophobic. Under the reign of David and Solomon, the Israelite civilization peaked and engaged in global trade. Hermetic and sacred geometric teachings were preserved in secret societies some of which were the predecessors of the Freemasons. When Israel went under Babylonian and Persian rule, these secret teachings were combined with others in the Kabbalah and were carried forward by the Essenes and Gnostics. The Phoenicians, Greeks, and Aryans also preserved a great deal of this knowledge. Under Babylonian rule, Judaism was forced to change in many ways. Some fundamentalist Jews wanted to return to the orthodox teachings of the Torah while other more pragmatic Jews cared less for the Torah and wanted simply to bring their race back to its glory days and fulfill the promises of world rule by whatever means necessary... enter Zionism.

The torch of ancient hermetic teachings and hierarchical world rule was passed from Israel to Persia and Babylon and to the Greeks and then to Rome which struggled to subdue the Zionists. Wisdom teachings from the East combined with Gnosticism and the teachings of the Essenes and the retelling of astro-theological myths amalgamated into the central personality of Jesus who may have been a real person or may have been modeled after a fairly common type of ascetic spiritual teacher and disciple-toting guru (which is still prevalent in India today) who conveyed similar teachings, explored "inner space", and may have even performed similar miracles. These teachings were beneficial, pacifistic, egalitarian, removed fear of death and fear of divine judgment, were anti-hierarchy and empowered the individual and therefore threatened the orthodox Jews, the Zionists, and the Roman authorities - persecution from these groups ensued. The first century was the end of the astrological age and many apocalyptic prophecies (such as that of Daniel) were circulating much as they are today.

The personality of Jesus whose teachings brought God down to man's level and created democracy in the kingdom of heaven, was eventually deified, placed on a pedestal, and used to signify an end to Judaism, and possibly co-opted in the 1st century to validate the Roman rule through contrived "prophecy". Despite being co-opted to promote the power of the Flavians over the Zionists, the beneficial and radical wisdom teachings of early Gnostic Christianity presented a threat to Roman rule, so the oligarchs fought it (which only caused to to grow), but starting with Constantine decided to co-opt the rapidly growing cult. The name "IESOUS CHIRSTOS" was a homophone with deities from Britain to India, contained the essential elements of the ancient astro-theological myths from Egypt and Babylon, contained enough beneficial truths to be popular, and was perfect for unifying the empire under one religion and perfect for pacifying the peasants under the feudal system.

Many of the teachings original to Christianity were still threatening to the power structure so these were either left out of the canon and burned or obscured from the population by the institution of the Catholic church and the illiteracy of the people. The Roman Catholic Church is essentially a secret society designed to provide protective layers over the truth to the benefit of the elites and oligarchs. When Martin Luther and the Gutenberg press bypassed the hierarchical structure of the church and brought these teachings straight to the people, a burst of enlightenment ensued and many hierarchies were overturned - all of this despite the un-truths and myths inserted into the narrative for the more immediate purposes of the early Romans and earlier Jews.

Before the Flavian destruction of Jerusalem, the more intelligent aristocratic Jews got out of town early and emigrated into central Europe forming the seeds of the Sephardic Jews (on the Iberian Peninsula) and the Ashkenazi Jews in Germany and north central Europe. Antisemitism pervaded Europe due to the anti-semitic narrative inserted into the New Testament, the history of conflict between Rome and the Zionists, the Zionists own racism and xenophobia, and the Zionists undying ambition and perceived divine right to eventually re-conquer the world. Constant persecution in central Europe meant that the smartest Ashkenazi Jews survived. The Ashkenazi Jews also encouraged their children to marry the smartest they could find and have many children. Christianity outlawed usury which opened the door to the intelligent Ashkenazi Jews to fill the need for debt service. Christianity took the smartest in the community, made them priests and forbid them to marry. So over the centuries the intelligence of the Ashkenazi increased above the rest of Europe and their power and wealth also increased as they became involved in banking and became the debt-holders of Europe.

The Freemasons, the Knights Templar, The Order of the Holy Sepulcher, the Roman Catholic Church, the Jesuits, and the Illuminati are all hierarchical organized secret societies that have at various times allied themselves with each other and created or infiltrated political power structures. They preserve the esoteric hermetic mentalist teachings and hold the keys to separating the myths and parables designed for the masses from their deeper symbolic meanings. They also serve as a graduated filter for the intelligent psychopathic elites to groom certain members for power positions.

At some point these secret societies were either allied with or infiltrated by the Ashkenazi banking dynasties to form the modern day Western power elite... or perhaps they always were extensions of occult Judaism (a.k.a. Mystery Babylon) since Freemasons trace their roots back to Solomon's temple and Egypt.

The Mentalism and Luciferianism in Freemasonry and Kabbalah recognizes that an enlightened individual has knowledge of good and evil and that either good or evil is a valid choice. The lower ranks of Freemasonry promote egalitarianism, enlightenment, and Luciferianism, yet acknowledge that the world is a great chess game. Somebody has to play black. Evil, deception, and trickery is a valid path, and Satanism is the extreme result of that path. There is a certain respect for "law" but an acknowledgement that all law, being formed of language and thought-forms (which are the basic building blocks of this mental reality), contains ambiguity and anyone smart enough to manipulate the inherent ambiguity in language and law has a god-like right to do so.

Islam is a branch of Judaism that is every bit as hellbent on religious world domination as the Zionists, but not at all covert about it. The Zionists, being generally smarter than the Islamists, and holding positions of financial power in the West have learned to co-opt the Islamic factions and manipulate them as pawns and agents of destruction.

And here we are today: the internet is creating the next great awakening which is blowing up the skirts of the secret societies and power structures with their jealously guarded knowledge. The aging petrified institution of the Church is dying and it is the end of the astrological age anyway, so new symbols are needed to represent the religion for the masses. The Catholic Church must therefore adapt or die. The Jesuit Pope has signaled that the decision has been made to adapt. So he says that Jesus is no longer necessary for salvation and his death was a failure.

If I were among the Elite and steering the narrative for the world in attempt to construct a new World Order and a new religion to go with it, I would now try and orchestrate events so that the Christians believe the prophecies of the battle of Armageddon and the Tribulation and the Anti-Christ are being fulfilled thereby drawing their story to its end and freeing them up to move on to the next phase of religion. The Muslims are looking for the Mahdi, which could be typified by the anti-Christ, and the Jews are still looking for their militaristic Messiah. Creating such a character could draw the astrological age down to its climactic end and bring resolution to the apocalyptic predictions of all three Abrahamic faiths while at the same time creating so much destruction and chaos that the door is wide open for the New Order to be brought back in.
 
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#36
Here is my [brief] attempt at untangling the knot...

6-12 thousand years ago a civilization flourished that was to some degree advanced technologically though they had made more progress exploring "inner space" than outer space. An ontology was developed that recognized the mental nature (thought - Thoth) of the universe and linked the mental subjective nature with the apparently objective external nature which today is vaguely approximated by hermetic teachings and sacred geometry. This knowledge was enshrined and preserved in the proportions of astrologically aligned and geometrically proportioned architecture and megalithic monuments. This civilization engaged in commerce throughout the world. There may have been some sort of genetic manipulation at this time that produced giants.

This civilization also assigned great meaning to the movement of the heavenly bodies and used astro-theological myths to organize their understanding of the movements of the heavenly bodies, explain their origins, and embed mentalist esoteric teachings in a form the common man could remember. Gradually this civilization became corrupt and rotted while climate change and natural disasters forced mass migrations that wiped out large portions of this civilization. The largest remnants survived in Babylon and Egypt.

Members of the Babylonian and Egyptian elite took their knowledge and separated from these societies to form the Israelite civilization which spread much farther and wider over the earth than we are led to believe. Possibly due to prior genetic manipulation or just the ordinary human tendency towards racism, the Israelites sometimes tried to exterminate neighboring tribes and kingdoms. Their laws contained a mixture of prior Babylonian and Egyptian law, hermetic deep teachings, and astrotheological myths, mixed with cultural laws that served to separate them from their predecessors and their surrounding neighbors and also to make them xenophobic. Under the reign of David and Solomon, the Israelite civilization peaked and engaged in global trade. Hermetic and sacred geometric teachings were preserved in secret societies some of which were the predecessors of the Freemasons. When Israel went under Babylonian and Persian rule, these secret teachings were combined with others in the Kabbalah and were carried forward by the Essenes and Gnostics. The Phoenicians, Greeks, and Aryans also preserved a great deal of this knowledge. Under Babylonian rule, Judaism was forced to change in many ways. Some fundamentalist Jews wanted to return to the orthodox teachings of the Torah while other more pragmatic Jews cared less for the Torah and wanted simply to bring their race back to its glory days and fulfill the promises of world rule by whatever means necessary... enter Zionism.

The torch of ancient hermetic teachings and hierarchical world rule was passed from Israel to Persia and Babylon and to the Greeks and then to Rome which struggled to subdue the Zionists. Wisdom teachings from the East combined with Gnosticism and the teachings of the Essenes and the retelling of astro-theological myths amalgamated into the central personality of Jesus who may have been a real person or may have been modeled after a fairly common type of ascetic spiritual teacher and disciple-toting guru (which is still prevalent in India today) who conveyed similar teachings, explored "inner space", and may have even performed similar miracles. These teachings were beneficial, pacifistic, egalitarian, removed fear of death and fear of divine judgment, were anti-hierarchy and empowered the individual and therefore threatened the orthodox Jews, the Zionists, and the Roman authorities - persecution from these groups ensued. The first century was the end of the astrological age and many apocalyptic prophecies (such as that of Daniel) were circulating much as they are today.

The personality of Jesus whose teachings brought God down to man's level and created democracy in the kingdom of heaven, was eventually deified, placed on a pedestal, and used to signify an end to Judaism, and possibly co-opted in the 1st century to validate the Roman rule through contrived "prophecy". Despite being co-opted to promote the power of the Flavians over the Zionists, the beneficial and radical wisdom teachings of early Gnostic Christianity presented a threat to Roman rule, so the oligarchs fought it (which only caused to to grow), but starting with Constantine decided to co-opt the rapidly growing cult. The name "IESOUS CHIRSTOS" was a homophone with deities from Britain to India, contained the essential elements of the ancient astro-theological myths from Egypt and Babylon, contained enough beneficial truths to be popular, and was perfect for unifying the empire under one religion and perfect for pacifying the peasants under the feudal system.

Many of the teachings original to Christianity were still threatening to the power structure so these were either left out of the canon and burned or obscured from the population by the institution of the Catholic church and the illiteracy of the people. The Roman Catholic Church is essentially a secret society designed to provide protective layers over the truth to the benefit of the elites and oligarchs. When Martin Luther and the Gutenberg press bypassed the hierarchical structure of the church and brought these teachings straight to the people, a burst of enlightenment ensued and many hierarchies were overturned - all of this despite the un-truths and myths inserted into the narrative for the more immediate purposes of the early Romans and earlier Jews.

Before the Flavian destruction of Jerusalem, the more intelligent aristocratic Jews got out of town early and emigrated into central Europe forming the seeds of the Sephardic Jews (on the Iberian Peninsula) and the Ashkenazi Jews in Germany and north central Europe. Antisemitism pervaded Europe due to the anti-semitic narrative inserted into the New Testament, the history of conflict between Rome and the Zionists, the Zionists own racism and xenophobia, and the Zionists undying ambition and perceived divine right to eventually re-conquer the world. Constant persecution in central Europe meant that the smartest Ashkenazi Jews survived. The Ashkenazi Jews also encouraged their children to marry the smartest they could find and have many children. Christianity outlawed usury which opened the door to the intelligent Ashkenazi Jews to fill the need for debt service. Christianity took the smartest in the community, made them priests and forbid them to marry. So over the centuries the intelligence of the Ashkenazi increased above the rest of Europe and their power and wealth also increased as they became involved in banking and became the debt-holders of Europe.

The Freemasons, the Knights Templar, The Order of the Holy Sepulcher, the Roman Catholic Church, the Jesuits, and the Illuminati are all hierarchical organized secret societies that have at various times allied themselves with each other and created or infiltrated political power structures. They preserve the esoteric hermetic mentalist teachings and hold the keys to separating the myths and parables designed for the masses from their deeper symbolic meanings. They also serve as a graduated filter for the intelligent psychopathic elites to groom certain members for power positions.

At some point these secret societies were either allied with or infiltrated by the Ashkenazi banking dynasties to form the modern day Western power elite... or perhaps they always were extensions of occult Judaism (a.k.a. Mystery Babylon) since Freemasons trace their roots back to Solomon's temple and Egypt.

The Mentalism and Luciferianism in Freemasonry and Kabbalah recognizes that an enlightened individual has knowledge of good and evil and that either good or evil is a valid choice. The lower ranks of Freemasonry promote egalitarianism, enlightenment, and Luciferianism, yet acknowledge that the world is a great chess game. Somebody has to play black. Evil, deception, and trickery is a valid path, and Satanism is the extreme result of that path. There is a certain respect for "law" but an acknowledgement that all law, being formed of language and thought-forms (which are the basic building blocks of this mental reality), contains ambiguity and anyone smart enough to manipulate the inherent ambiguity in language and law has a god-like right to do so.

Islam is a branch of Judaism that is every bit as hellbent on religious world domination as the Zionists, but not at all covert about it. The Zionists, being generally smarter than the Islamists, and holding positions of financial power in the West have learned to co-opt the Islamic factions and manipulate them as pawns and agents of destruction.

And here we are today: the internet is creating the next great awakening which is blowing up the skirts of the secret societies and power structures with their jealously guarded knowledge. The aging petrified institution of the Church is dying and it is the end of the astrological age anyway, so new symbols are needed to represent the religion for the masses. The Catholic Church must therefore adapt or die. The Jesuit Pope has signaled that the decision has been made to adapt. So he says that Jesus is no longer necessary for salvation and his death was a failure.

If I were among the Elite and steering the narrative for the world in attempt to construct a new World Order and a new religion to go with it, I would now try and orchestrate events so that the Christians believe the prophecies of the battle of Armageddon and the Tribulation and the Anti-Christ are being fulfilled thereby drawing their story to its end and freeing them up to move on to the next phase of religion. The Muslims are looking for the Mahdi, which could be typified by the anti-Christ, and the Jews are still looking for their militaristic Messiah. Creating such a character could draw the astrological age down to its climactic end and bring resolution to the apocalyptic predictions of all three Abrahamic faiths while at the same time creating so much destruction and chaos that the door is wide open for the New Order to be brought back in.
add this to the mix: http://www.pyramidcode.com/ (just watched the series on Netflix... I think it's on Youtube as well)

takeaways:
- push the start date back 30K years
- myth of progress... others new more about some stuff than we do now
- matriarchal divine spark gets co-opted by greed and lust for power and control

hope to get Dr. Carmen Boulter on skeptiko
 
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#37
The Gospel of Thomas is awesome... great... inspired spiritual wisdom... it is the divine spark of Gnosis shinning thru. But can we be sure it's uniquely tied to this time and this person. Seems to me that it works equally well as a something that was ascribed to Jesus.
Well, of course it's hard to be certain of it. And yes, I agree that it works equally well without knowing who was really behind those sayings. (That would apply to any spiritual teaching, wouldn't it?)
I guess I just have a hard time believing that such profound teachings as that of "Jesus" could have been invented as part of a con trick to gain political power.

I also think that the writings of Paul gives some credence to the historical Jesus (as erickh wrote above). But since Paul did not meet Jesus himself, it is hard to know if Paul reflects the message of Jesus. I find the writings of Paul not at all to have the same depth as that of Jesus (or rather, I find Paul to be very uneven in the quality of his teachings - he has his better moments :)).

Another reason for me to view Jesus as a historical person is maybe somewhat more weird. I read a book a couple of years ago that is called Teachings of Silver Birch. It is channelled material from a spiritual being calling himself Silver Birch. I found these teachings to be very profound, standing on their on right. Silver Birch makes many references to Jesus. Silver Birch does not think that the church stands for what Jesus stands for (present tense because Silver Birch claims to have contact with this high spiritual being that he calls "the Nazarene"). Because Silver Birch has affected me so much with his message over all, I find it plausible that there can be truth to what he says about this as well. But I suppose this "argument" is totally dependent on that you find the teachings of Silver Birch to resonate with you as true...
 
#38
Sorry Alex but the little response to this thread might suggest others were as interested in this as I was.
I think the real problem is, that it is hard to comment unless one has a lot of historical knowledge and background. I feel the same about discussions about the felling of the twin towers - I mean given the fairly extreme physics involved, it is really hard to know if the towers would have dropped as they did.

David
 
#39
the evidence also suggests that he didn't have to exist in order to give us all that we have when it comes to the Christian experience... i.e. Spirit/God/consciousness seems to find a way regardless. to me this is the big, big point that gets lost in all this.
I would agree with you here. Christian churches have generally made it all about Jesus the person. They believe he was unique. This is not so. He was simply another enlightened individual in a long list of enlightened individuals. Most of his teachings are not unique nor was he the first one in history to teach many of the things he taught.

I believe Jesus himself would agree with me that he himself as a person was not unique nor what was important (John 8:28; 5:19,30; 6:38) Jesus according to the record which has come down to us himself said his disciples would do greater works than he did (John 14:12)

So what was important wasn't Jesus as a person but the state of consciousness shining thru him. Jesus often talked about the "Father" working thru him. It was that "christ consciousness", "buddha consciousness " or call it what you will that acted thru Jesus was what was important. Many before and after Jesus have obtained that same state of christ consciousness as he did. And every human has the same potential within them to do so.
 
#40
One detail I picked up on in this interview that for some reason I hadn't caught on before was Atwill's repeated insistence on the significance of the "Son of Man" references in the Gospel. He makes it sounds like Jesus is explicitly referring to someone else (which Atwill takes to mean the Flavian emperor) when mentioning the "Son of Man". I don't have the time or the inclination right down to read the NT and study this, but I'd be curious to know if someone else has made the case that Jesus is referring to someone else rather than himself here, and what scholars usually do with the utterance of this phrase.
Hi, Ian
I remember reading a very detailed book by a good female Oxford scholar (I can't remember her name, sorry ) .What I do remember is that she summed up based on her opinion and some of her colleagues that the term "son of man" from Palestinian Aramaic ... simply meant THIS MAN, nothing more. I haven't looked into it again since studying her book years ago.
Doesn't mean she's right of course but she did have excellent credentials.
 
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