Jan Irvin of Gnostic Media and Holocaust Denial

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I disagree... at least about the 10 hours part... and I think this is part of what fuels this wacky Holocaust denier stuff. I've watched a ton of sadly moving films on the Holocaust... there's no way to measure the extent of this misery.

I've also watch films like this very excellent one from a Cambodian journalist who lost his family in the killing fields and went looking for (and found) these murders:

again, no way measure this misery, or compare it to someone else's... but when we broaden the lens we can at least start to look at the larger spiritual questions and not get mired in this wacky "Holocaust denier" debate... i.e. it's not about Nazis, it's about how we are all susceptible to being manipulated into doing horrible things.
We are probably just thinking past one another. I don't see how 10 hours of first person accounts of the extermination machine that was the camps could fuel holocaust denial. I don't see how anyone who really sat down and watched SHOAH could think the gas chambers were used only for storage. I was never the same following SHOAH. I've watched it a couple of times, in fact. I've rarely felt my humanness more fully.
 
We are probably just thinking past one another. I don't see how 10 hours of first person accounts of the extermination machine that was the camps could fuel holocaust denial. I don't see how anyone who really sat down and watched SHOAH could think the gas chambers were used only for storage. I was never the same following SHOAH. I've watched it a couple of times, in fact. I've rarely felt my humanness more fully.
it can fuel it in that there's an imbalance, and a lack of perspective... notice that you didn't even mention the film I referenced.

so, people hear Holocaust... Nazi...Holocaust... Nazi...Holocaust... Nazi... and they say, "yeah, that's because that was a unique time and place led by a really evil guy" rather than pondering the spiritual nature of this, and our susceptibility to be influenced into doing horrible things.
 
it can fuel it in that there's an imbalance, and a lack of perspective... notice that you didn't even mention the film I referenced.

so, people hear Holocaust... Nazi...Holocaust... Nazi...Holocaust... Nazi... and they say, "yeah, that's because that was a unique time and place led by a really evil guy" rather than pondering the spiritual nature of this, and our susceptibility to be influenced into doing horrible things.
In my mind you could replace the phrase spiritual nature with human nature.
 
Can you list which testimony is false?

No. It's been over a decade since I investigated this stuff. Off-hand I seem to remember this film had the usual giant gas chambers, the Diesel gassings, the wildly exaggerated numbers, and the open pit cremation stuff.

That film was made back in the 80's when Holocaust propaganda was far more ham-fisted than today.

The problem with the "Noble Lie" is that it destroys credibility. The short-term benefits of the lie are completely wiped out by the long-term harm because that first small lie causes people to discount the whole thing as a lie.
 
No. It's been over a decade since I investigated this stuff. Off-hand I seem to remember this film had the usual giant gas chambers, the Diesel gassings, the wildly exaggerated numbers, and the open pit cremation stuff.

That film was made back in the 80's when Holocaust propaganda was far more ham-fisted than today.

The problem with the "Noble Lie" is that it destroys credibility. The short-term benefits of the lie are completely wiped out by the long-term harm because that first small lie causes people to discount the whole thing as a lie.
Have you watched the entire film, or only read about it?

Since the film is composed entirely of first hand witnesses, do you supposed Lanzman provided them with scripts? Or he just found people who were naturally good storytellers about the holocaust?

What was the purpose behind telling mis-truths in the film? For the jews and also for the local people who also served in the film as first person witnesses?

I would expect when you say, "when you learn how much of that testimony is false" that you can at least give an estimate. 10% is false? 50%? 95%
 
Always trust Wikipedia as an un-biased, reliable source of information. :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience

There's an extensive list of academic references one can follow from Malf's link though?

Is there anything comparable on the denier side? I would think Germany would've done its utmost to debunk the evidence at the time, especially since there was already disbelief in America about how bad things really were over there until photographic evidence was disseminated?
 
It's generally a safe bet when the alternative is fringe, dim-witted propaganda.

:)

It's not. Once upon a time, I was a sysop there. But don't worry, I wasn't interested in the paranormal back then... My area was Nordic history and I left because of the site's politics. BS that is driven by consensus is still BS and most of the users were college aged, which doesn't help.
 
Have you watched the entire film, or only read about it?

I watched it a long time ago.

Holocaust Survivors lie mostly for mundane reasons, such as; to get money, to get sympathy, for the attention.

I can't estimate what what percentage of the testimony is false. It's the usual stuff; the giant gas chambers, the Diesel gassings, the wildly exaggerated numbers, and the open pit cremation stuff.

If you are really interested, pick a single Holocaust "fact" you wish to investigate and research the most compelling evidence you can find for BOTH the "true" and "false" cases. Weigh the evidence and judge which side seems most plausible to you.

Most lies such as Iraq WMD's, Pearl Harbor, JFK, et al. persist because people are simply too lazy to do good research, or actually don't care enough to.
 
It's generally a safe bet when the alternative is fringe, dim-witted propaganda.

:)
It's ok for safe topics, such as finding out who won the Eurovision song contest. But for anything serious - it has to be taken as a merely a hint as to possible further lines of research. And when to comes to the paranormal - it would definitely be the first port of call for dim-witted propaganda.
 
I watched it a long time ago.

Holocaust Survivors lie mostly for mundane reasons, such as; to get money, to get sympathy, for the attention.

I can't estimate what what percentage of the testimony is false. It's the usual stuff; the giant gas chambers, the Diesel gassings, the wildly exaggerated numbers, and the open pit cremation stuff.

If you are really interested, pick a single Holocaust "fact" you wish to investigate and research the most compelling evidence you can find for BOTH the "true" and "false" cases. Weigh the evidence and judge which side seems most plausible to you.

Most lies such as Iraq WMD's, Pearl Harbor, JFK, et al. persist because people are simply too lazy to do good research, or actually don't care enough to.
Fair enough. I honestly don't care enough to dig into any of it. I'm past thinking I can really have any idea of what really happened at even the most mundane events. I guess we all kind of pick and chose our narratives based on a gestalt of our experience and psychology. It is interesting to watch which sides people line up on and how hot they get when their babies are tossed into the furnace.
 
"reasonable" is part of the shtick. once past this very thin veneer, he sounds like a totally wacky Holocaust denier to me. it's a funny group. I don't really understand the end game. it's not like they're making any money... maybe just a outsider group thing... IDK.

Youtube comments from his supporters are telling (e.g.):
The Six million Jews exterminated by Hitler is one of the biggest lies ever pushed into the human brain for more than seven decades. Its been scientifically proven that those so called Ovens were storage rooms and those camps in Auschwitz were camps for prisoners of war from all races and colors. The Six million figure has been going around long before...

After having listened to the videos it seems his position is: during the war, endless propaganda and lies were put out on both sides, and after the war, no one wanted to clean up the mess and sort out the truth from the fake propaganda because that would seem unpatriotic, so many of the things that have been taken for granted as actual history are a mixture of fact and fiction or in some cases all fiction. That part seems pretty reasonable.

His position is that there were POW camps, but that Hitler never intended to exterminate the Jews; however, some of those under him did and when it looked like they were going to be overrun those generals took matters into their hands and killed off a bunch of POWs (many of whom were Jews rounded up for merely being Jews). But the numbers killed were nowhere near the 6 million figure that had been alleged for 30 years before the war even began. So he is saying holocaust has been exaggerated and exploited and that the caricatured demonic version of Hitler we are left with is actually just war propaganda that was never properly fact checked.

The "six million Jews" figure in old newspapers:
 
I guess now I don't know for sure whether Hitler was a monster or not, but I don't think I'll ever be able to get to the bottom of it. I'll just continue assuming he was, but the fact that I've watched our media and government make "Hitlers" out of other heads of state in order to take them out really makes me wonder if they didn't make Hitler into Hitler...
 
I watched it a long time ago.

Holocaust Survivors lie mostly for mundane reasons, such as; to get money, to get sympathy, for the attention.

I can't estimate what what percentage of the testimony is false. It's the usual stuff; the giant gas chambers, the Diesel gassings, the wildly exaggerated numbers, and the open pit cremation stuff.
Where does that leave NDE stories?

At least with the Nazi extermination of the Jews there is evidence beyond the stories.
 
but that Hitler never intended to exterminate the Jews...

This kinda brings us back full circle to the beginning of this thread. I repeat:

Here's the historical record (re the Final Solution) as I understand it:
At some still undetermined time in 1941, Hitler authorized this European-wide scheme for mass murder. Heydrich convened the Wannsee Conference (1) to inform and secure support from government ministries and other interested agencies relevant to the implementation of the “Final Solution,” and (2) to disclose to the participants that Hitler himself had tasked Heydrich and the RSHA with coordinating the operation. The men at the table did not deliberate whether such a plan should be undertaken, but instead discussed the implementation of a policy decision that had already been made at the highest level of the Nazi regime.
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005477


I'm not an expert in this stuff, but all the attempts I've heard to counter this seem really lame.
 
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