Jason Louv, A Strange Mix of Scientism and Magick |385|

That totally vanished as a result of his intolerance, narrow mindset and naivety (ignorance?) in this interview.
This post exactly. Although I actually soured on Louv during one of those other podcast interviews...(which ironically also included an interview on the Tin Foil Hat podcast -- a podcast by stand-up comedians who enjoy talking about -- and generally give credence to -- conspiracy theories. (I don't think they realized that Louv has nothing but contempt for their world-views)).

And I'm just not sure how a man (or guy? Guy!!!) who claims to have written a book about "occult forces that have shaped society" (his own words) doesn't believe in "conspiracy theories"? Isn't THAT a conspiracy theory?
 
Luckily there are many such reports! Here's one good site to consider: I know plenty more.

https://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/geoengineering-answers-to-the-most-commonly-asked-questions/
Unfortunately the first thing I see is a photo that could be contrails. A little further down it appears again and is claimed as "blatant geo-engineering" with no explanation. On the left is a photo of infamous cross-hatching and an insistent urging to join up. Once again what might be actually contrails are inferred to be otherwise - with no explanation.

Misrepresentation of contrails as chemtrails is rife. That does not mean the site does not contain valid argument and genuine evidence. But I am immediately suspicious. Now I do not doubt that agencies are putting toxic crap into our atmosphere. Cloud seeding is openly admitted to, and other stuff is probably happening.

One of the problems I have with what I have seen on YouTube is cuts between scenes of real scientists expressing genuine alarm and images of trails in the sky. The inference is that the two are related. But I have yet to see a credible scientist, indeed anybody credible, point to a trail in the sky and say that it is a chemtrail. I have watched a lot of YouTube videos and I am not convinced that there is sufficient evidence to support the insistence that what seem to me to be contrails are actually chemtrails. I am not being difficult, or selective, just properly skeptical. Give me evidence.

I do not know why, if there is the compelling evidence claimed, that the pro chemtrail folk persist in flagrant efforts at manipulation. One video showed a bad mock up of an image of a fence with a sign saying that here was the US Airforce Academy of Chemtrails. Rational people, believers all, actually told me is was real. Yeah? Right. Like the US Airforce would do that? Show me I am wrong.

I admit that there is good chance the real truth is smoked by a lot of deliberately bad misrepresentation intended to weaken the valid case. But why do so many pro-chemtrail people buy the blatant crap? Why do they not create quality sites with disciplined and well argued cases?

Please let me hear a real pilot tell me that cross-hatching of chemtrails is done because that is the most effective way of getting maximum coverage. This is the argument I hear constantly, and when I ask why it is I get garble in response. There's wind up there for gods sake.

And I am told that alleged chemtrailing above me is intended to rain down on me. Yeah? At 30,000 feet that's going to happen? I have rational and well educated friends who are into chemtrails. From my perspective their claims and arguments are complete bollocks. Their insistence that their 'evidence' is scientific is risible. I have almost lost long friendships over this matter.Now we agree not to talk about it.

I don't want to seem to be disrespectful. i don't doubt there is geo-engineering because its the kind of stupid thing that governments would do. But I am not going to believe without evidence that is worth something. I have spent hours on YouTube watching videos my friends have insisted is the proof I need in a genuine desire to learn. So far no cigar.

If this is so real why is presenting credible evidence so hard?
 
With all due respect for your illustrious career, which I really do respect as my father, husband and best friend are all pilots, this is not just about planes at all. That is some of it though. As I live in a very rural area it was immediately noticeable when these trails started to appear and very easy to discover most of them are not normal commercial flights. That took about 3 phone calls. When I was rebuffed, given the runaround and treated like an impetuous child, that's when I really got my panties in a bunch. I haven't let up since, and will not.

But as you are already quite convinced of your rightness, we will drop it there.
A question: are there professional and academic people - scientists, mathematicians, scholars, philosophers, engineers, technicians, pilots etc. - within the Chemtrails / Contrails movement? The heretical professionals and academicians are people who are open-minded enough to consider the fringe observations and notions yet are also knowledgeable enough to sort weed from chaff. They are crucial for the credible fringe movement and form its intellectual core, helping to cleanse it from outright nonsense and concentrate on the observations and notions that are valid (or, at least, promising).
While my question about the presence of professionals and academicians within Chemtrail / Contrail community still stands, I want to ask you one question more, Michelle: your father, husband and best friend, who are pilots - what are their opinion on your assessments of the supposed chemtrails (contrails?) above your house, and on the Chemtrail / Contrail stuff in general? Do they agree with you (fully or partially), or do they disagree?
 
Louv''s accounts of the "Angels" was inconsistent and problematic
The fact that Louv is a Scientific Materialist who doesn't even believe Angels exist makes him a disingenuous fraud, the same as Dr. Maria Caplan in a previous episode.

It's akin to me being a secret Atheist and earning money on the Christian lecture circuit traveling around to churches conducting "Christianity-based Self-Defense" martial arts seminars. ...fraudulent.
 
Michelle: your father, husband and best friend, who are pilots - what are their opinion on your assessments of the supposed chemtrails (contrails?) above your house, and on the Chemtrail / Contrail stuff in general? Do they agree with you (fully or partially), or do they disagree?
My guess is that they are private pilots, not professional pilots, maybe cropsprayers, who are of course professional pilots. I’ve never met any airline colleague that didn’t think that chemtrails were total nonsense. That having been said, I would put them, and military pilots, as very ‘left brained’ people in general, not open to thinking about topics such as this one outside the box in the way that most people here are, or in fact thinking seriously about them all.

I’m totally in synch with Michael’s post #102 above. ;;/?
 
I do not know why, if there is the compelling evidence claimed, that the pro chemtrail folk persist in flagrant efforts at manipulation. One video showed a bad mock up of an image of a fence with a sign saying that here was the US Airforce Academy of Chemtrails. Rational people, believers all, actually told me is was real. Yeah? Right. Like the US Airforce would do that? Show me I am wrong.
I can say that this particular road sign "case" is 100% nonsense - and this is one of the few cases when I can say it immediately and without a shred of doubt. If such an educational facility exists anywhere (which I doubt), it is called "School of the Applied Atmosphere Studies" or something like that.

It is like to think that assassination and torture specialists from the CIA and their ilk - and such specialists exist beyond doubt - study some course like "Torture and Assassination 101" in their closed academies. No, it is called something like "intense interrogation techniques", "exceptional political conflict solutions" etc.
 
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Michael’s quoting me in post #102, talking about Soulatman’s post has me thinking about this ‘Fake News/Truth/Conspiracy’ problem, if it is a problem? As I said, personally I have had very many disappointments over the past couple of years that I don’t recall having encountered before that. It appears to me that these have been brought into my awareness rather suddenly, and more interestingly perhaps - deliberately.

For years I have had pals that I got on well with, I guess we never really considering anything that we might disagree over. We had similar interests and ‘thinking’, and I suppose we were limited to talking about these interests. After my stroke in 2011, I was initially busy with recovering from the event, my main thrust was on physical recovery, I didn’t really consider the mental too much. (Maybe I had ‘help’ there for a few years? But that’s another story) I was generally very upbeat and so grateful that I was still here. This gratefulness was not wholly selfish, I was grateful that I had survived for my wife and daughters sake. Having learned so much more since 2011, about my family and others, including myself, I think I’m better placed to know how devastating a blow for them my death would have been.

Once I started properly taking in things I had not really looked at before, after my four years of intensely investigating esoteric topics, my interests and questions automatically moved to a different, more down to earth level. Like a bumper car that has crashed and helped back onto the track by ‘a man’, I was on my way once again.

Scottish Independence.

Basically I had just accelerated away when the first big thing that happened was the Scottish Independence Referendum. As a Scot living in England I am basically pro independence, it isn’t a big thing for me, or wasn’t before this. For the first time I saw how biased and sneakily the ‘highly respected’ BBC behaved, I found myself drawn to watching the news more closely, frequently feeling the Scots were being hard done by by the British Establishment. When they suddenly realised that with two weeks to go there was the very real threat of the YES vote winning, they pulled out all the stops. Project fear was introduced big time, I could almost feel the media shitting itself. You could sense the onslaught! This was my introduction to the real media. When the vote was lost it was no real surprise to me.

Next came the biggie for Britain - Brexit.

On the morning of the day after the result came out, we were staying with a bunch of friends for a wedding in Edinburgh. At Breakfast, you would be forgiven for thinking that they all had been given a week to live! Talk about depression, doom and gloom was the order of the day. Dear oh dear. My wife and I were amazed at their reaction, especially when she had voted FOR Brexit! I think my recent life experience had changed both our thinking about things like this. Live for today. This was what I was thinking, you’re worried about something that might not even happen, and even if it does, you won’t die, or be injured. You may have a bit less money, but so what? We lived on a fifth of my previous income, and what was really different? Nothing of significance. Can worrying about something bring it into being? I think it might. If so, I’m not at all surprised by what we’re seeing some two years later.

The next biggie was Trump.

I remember the night before when a Channel 4 reporter almost gleefully, spitefully said that ‘Trump will regret that tomorrow’ implying that he would lose. I might have voted for Trump if forced to choose, only because Hillary had promised to enforce the no-fly zone in Syria, and being openly hostile to the Russians, and very pro Israel. I was not hopeful. But if I though people were upset with Brexit, I was wrong BIG TIME! They were suicidal with the news that Trump had won. Openly crying crocodile tears, weeping as if their whole family had been killed. Moving to Canada. It was the beginning of the true insanity. With Trump openly mocking disabled reporters and calling for more violent actions from his mainly white supporters. My lefty friends being party to the Facebook farce. I openly told them what I thought, they are intelligent enough to read what I was saying and reply without us falling out.

Basically it seemed that things were being thrown up to the sky on a huge scale. Our normal worlds were being turned upside down by ‘all this insanity’.

On a smaller scale, there was/is the same type of thing happening.

My NDE experiencer friend suddenly showed his true colours (white :) - I’m kidding - sheesh) when he turned out to be anti -immigrant right winger. Surely that wasn’t supposed to happen?? All sorts of people that I thought I agreed with turned out having views about some subjects that I radically disagreed with. People on the TV, Ex - Colleagues and friends of mine, even some old friends, I’ve lost contact with, though I’ve learned to be less ‘bothered’ with that. I’ve had SO MANY disappointments that I’ve had to come to terms with since my stroke. Now it just ‘is what it is’. I accept things much more willingly than I used to. I have gone round in circles asking myself ‘what’s the right thing to do?’ I think it’s right that we do what we feel right. There are a gazillion opinions. It’s all we can do.

So we come full circle to the Chemtrails issue. It’s just yet another issue that we worry about/ have opinions about/ get angry over blah blah blah. That along with so many others. THE _THING_ ITSELF IS NOT THE ISSUE. I think it’s how we learn how to deal with others of a differing opinion that matters. Maybe that’s where the consciousness change ought to happen?

I confess to being a big Nde fan, well, some NDEs anyway, but that is not my only reason for thinking this way. There are many things which point to love being ‘what it’s all about’. If I’m wrong so be it, I think it’s better than believing it’s all about hate. We feel better inside when we do something nice for someone, or are kind to others.

IT’s brought a mirror to our awareness. Brought it into our lives so that we simply cannot ignore it any longer, we must face it. Did we really think that we could go on acting as we have been with no consequence? Its not as if we’re fighting with swords any longer. It’s not as if we haven’t reached a point with our technology, our beloved ‘science’, that if we concentrated our efforts on trying to improve thing rather that make things worse, we could achieve amazing results.

I don’t know if this made the point I started off thinking I might make, but I feel a bit better! :)
 
I make a judgement call. I call on a pretty decent background of research, investigation and analysis. That's all I have got. Even so I have been wrong before, and no doubt I will be wrong again. I am so over this whole damned subject I have nothing left I want to offer - other than sincere critical consideration of what seem to me to be reasoned and rational commentary.
Well, let me quote Henry Bauer's "Doing Science means exploring" - the editoral for the very first issue of Edge Science magazine, published by the Society for the Scientific Exploration:

The Society for Scientific Exploration, which is publishing this magazine, was founded initially by distinguished astronomers, engineers, physicists and others to provide a disciplined forum for topics that the scientific mainstream ignored totally: UFOs, psychic phenomena, cryptozoology (Bigfoot, Loch Ness monsters) were the Big Three, but of course there are many others as well. The determination that the discussions be rigorously scientific led to stringent requirements for membership: PhD or equivalent, tenured university position or equivalent, respectable record of peer-reviewed publications in a mainstream field. I liked to joke that these requirements were supposed to keep out the kooks, when I knew quite a few kooks with all these qualifications. But in practice the respect for and insistence on evidence and logic has been very high. And membership has actually been opened to anyone who is interested in exploring topics that mainstream science tends to shove under the carpet, for the original restrictive criteria have been limited essentially to voting rights, and there are now about three times as many Associate and Student members as there are voting ones.
Well, I think the three criteria mentioned by Bauer can be a good guidance in what mean "credibility" for academicians; for non-academic professionals, the analogs may be a license, membership in a professional community and a period of actual practice.

Again (and as Bauer also noted), the absence of such academic and / or professional qualifications of a person is not as and in itself the sign that the fringe notions and / or observations supported by such person is false, or do not deserve attention. But if a particular movement supported almost only by persons without qualifications, it is a very clear sign that such movement is either a total "far out" one - or dwelling dangerously close to the very edge of the "far out" bottomless pit.
 
Or get used to swimming in frigid waters! :)

I appreciate your reply. I don't waste time on shape-shifting reptilians, but that folks put it in this same "fringe" category as weather modification and weather warfare though this history is well-documented and immediately provable demonstrates to me this particular psy-op has been very well-played. Should you decide to put 'chemtrails' on your research to-do list, I'd be happy to provide you with some serious material to peruse.
Michelle, you said that you have a lot of links to the sources supporting the existence of the real chemtrails. Can you provide at least some of them here in the thread?
 
The next biggie was Trump.

I remember the night before when a Channel 4 reporter almost gleefully, spitefully said that ‘Trump will regret that tomorrow’ implying that he would lose. I might have voted for Trump if forced to choose, only because Hillary had promised to enforce the no-fly zone in Syria, and being openly hostile to the Russians, and very pro Israel. I was not hopeful. But if I though people were upset with Brexit, I was wrong BIG TIME! They were suicidal with the news that Trump had won. Openly crying crocodile tears, weeping as if their whole family had been killed. Moving to Canada. It was the beginning of the true insanity. With Trump openly mocking disabled reporters and calling for more violent actions from his mainly white supporters. My lefty friends being party to the Facebook farce. I openly told them what I thought, they are intelligent enough to read what I was saying and reply without us falling out.

Basically it seemed that things were being thrown up to the sky on a huge scale. Our normal worlds were being turned upside down by ‘all this insanity’.
There certainly seems to be a strange attitude about nowadays. The BBC has transformed itself over recent years from an organisation that prided itself on taking a fair minded, balanced view on everything, to an organisation that my partner compares with the media in Eastern Europe before the revolution - and she knows, because she came from there. There is a news and current affairs radio program that I always used to listen to over breakfast, but now it has become really weird - on so many subjects it only presents one point of view, and everyone is supposed to be anti-Trump - and yes the BBC has become spiteful at times! I understand that something similar has happened to the media in the US, except for Fox News. Indeed, Fox News and Russia Today are the only places where you can find out much of what is actually going on in the world today!

Is it all organised in some obscure way, is there a psychic component to it all? Honestly I don't know, but I hope the Democrats do really badly in the mid-terms, and they do what they should have done almost two years ago - shut up and think long and hard about what America really needs - particularly its many shamefully poor areas.

Steve - it isn't the lingering after effects of your stroke - the world really has changed!

My NDE experiencer friend suddenly showed his true colours (white :) - I’m kidding - sheesh) when he turned out to be anti -immigrant right winger. Surely that wasn’t supposed to happen?? All sorts of people that I thought I agreed with turned out having views about some subjects that I radically disagreed with. People on the TV, Ex - Colleagues and friends of mine, even some old friends, I’ve lost contact with, though I’ve learned to be less ‘bothered’ with that. I’ve had SO MANY disappointments that I’ve had to come to terms with since my stroke. Now it just ‘is what it is’. I accept things much more willingly than I used to. I have gone round in circles asking myself ‘what’s the right thing to do?’ I think it’s right that we do what we feel right. There are a gazillion opinions. It’s all we can do.
Don't forget that everyone is confused in the present climate. For example, I don't think the terms "right winger" and "left winger" even mean what it used to mean decades ago. Back then it was the left that prioritised peace, whereas now they seem to want to antagonise Russia in whatever way possible. I'd try not to lose contact with people, even if they have expressed some views you don't agree with - try to understand why they are saying what they do.

David
 
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Indeed, Fox News and Russia Today are the only places where you can find out much of what is actually going on in the world today!
David, openly stating such an opinion on a pilot forum I frequent would immediately relegate even Douglas Bader with legs to a status lower than the shadow of shark shit on the floor of the Marianas Trench. :)
 
David, openly stating such an opinion on a pilot forum I frequent would immediately relegate even Douglas Bader with legs to a status lower than the shadow of shark shit on the floor of the Marianas Trench. :)
I suspect a lot of people feel under pressure to express views they don't really believe - again something that was the case in the old Eastern Europe!

David
 
Steve - it isn't the lingering after effects of your stroke - the world really has changed!
Oh sure, I realise that. In fact I’m very grateful for the stroke not having changed my personality at all, as far as I can see, but without a shadow of doubt, it has had a big effect on my thinking.

I'd try not to lose contact with people, even if they have expressed some views you don't agree with - try to understandwhy they are saying what they do.
I know what you’re saying, but I’m ok with it. I really am. I draw my line at friends supporting or being associated with people that think violence is acceptable. I still hate no-one, or even dislike many of them.
 
I know what you’re saying, but I’m ok with it. I really am. I draw my line at friends supporting or being associated with people that think violence is acceptable. I still hate no-one, or even dislike many of them.
Does it mean that no cops, no "intelligence service" agents, no prison wards, no "coercive" (read: violent) psychiatrists - and no military pilots - can be your friends? Or state-approved violence is an exception from a general rule?
 
Does it mean that no cops, no "intelligence service" agents, no prison wards, no "coercive" (read: violent) psychiatrists - and no military pilots - can be your friends? Or state-approved violence is an exception from a general rule?
Yeah, I guess it pretty much does.

Why the underhand aggression I wonder?
 
I've just got around to listening to this. It was quite something to behold.

I've rarely seen a more blatant case of Orwellian doublethink (the ability to hold two contradictory opinions at the same time).

I loved the way he tried to justify it "Yeah Robert Anton Wilson says it's good to wear different hats."

LOL.

This chap is clearly not a thinker.
 
I've just got around to listening to this. It was quite something to behold.

I've rarely seen a more blatant case of Orwellian doublethink (the ability to hold two contradictory opinions at the same time).

I loved the way he tried to justify it "Yeah Robert Anton Wilson says it's good to wear different hats."

LOL.

This chap is clearly not a thinker.
I think one of the roles of the Skeptiko podcasts is to winkle out bizarre double-think of this sort. I blow hot and cold about Alex's interviewing style, but I have to say, few interviewers would have pushed Jason hard enough to expose this side of his belief system!

To give Jason a teeny bit of benefit of the doubt, I think a lot of people have no interest in or knowledge of science, and just assume it all must be right! They never think about the fact (say) that when pushed, the scientists that 'know' about consciousness, explain that free will doesn't/can't exist!

However, every interviewee has access to this site and surely anyone with any sense would explore the place a bit before submitting to an interview!

David
 
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