Jasun Horsley, How Culture Shapers Spin Aleister Crowley |457|

Alex

Administrator
#1
Jasun Horsley, How Culture Shapers Spin Aleister Crowley |457|
by Alex Tsakiris | Jul 21 | Spirituality


Jasun Horsey has a razor sharp critique of how the occult has become part of our pedocracy culture.

photo by: Skeptiko
[Clip 00:00:00 – 00:00:09]
I have an interview coming up in a minute with Jason Horsley. We talk a lot about the cultural influence of Aleister Crowley. Do you need any more evidence than a Scooby doo movie or a Buffy the Vampire episode?
So, this is a really long interview. I think there’s a ton of good stuff in it.
Here are some clips from the show.
Jasun Horsley: [00:00:30] You bring a case like Crowley and you put him under the microscope, and you see what I saw with The Vice of Kings. How far was he willing to take that? He was willing to take that all the way, he was looking for what he perceived as the most evil act possible, the unforgivable sin in the Bible, the sin against the Holy spirit that’s unforgivable and then committing it, as a way to, the passive transgression, completely free himself from social conditioning, from false morality. And we’re living in a culture and climate that advocates this, it’s all over.
I mean, if somebody is consciously deceiving, they would have to also be deluded as well. They would have to have some rationale for doing it that would be fundamentally delusional. I mean, I do believe there’s an innate moral sense that we have biologically even, we have a sense of what’s right and wrong in any given moment.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:01:30] You know, how effective you can be with 90% to 95% truth… and win your trust, so that I can then use that to kind of switch things in a different way.
Jasun Horsley: [00:01:44] It’s spin isn’t it? My sense with Levenda, and he did help me see something ironically, is that I started to get a sense that it was to do with ideological affiliation, if you like. That Levenda, my impression anyway, he’s ideologically affiliated with occult values and systems and methodologies.
 
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#2
Hi Alex,
I am new to forum, and have spent lockdown catching up on your fascinating podcasts and reading much, including a lot of the works of Aleister Crowley.
I have never read either Peter Levenda or my compatriot Jasun Horsley, but having read the discourse between the two, I must come down firmly in defence of Levenda and Crowley. My reasons are as follows.
JH is too preoccupied by what we now call evil and horrific, and fails to take in any historical context of what would have been considered shocking and evil in late Victorian and Edwardian Britain.
Paedophilia would unlikely have fallen into this category during those periods as the mark of the beast, in the way that it has been associated with satanic ritual in recent years.
In 1875 the year Crowley was born, the age of consent was 12 years old. Child prostitution was rife as was child trafficking, and it took W T Stead and the Armstrong case ten years later to bring it the attention of the public. Queen Victoria herself had the largest known collection of pornography, much of which was child pornography and the likes of Lewis Carroll were lauded paedophiles.
AC certainly indulged in buggery while a teenager at school, which was illegal for any age, and he was coy about his descriptions of this in his writings, however this was a product of his age and situation. He kept his homosexuality to adults in subsequent years.
In my opinion, even if he was that way inclined, for which there is no evidence, this would not have been extreme or shocking for AC to utilise given its prevalence in Society, not that it was ever his intention to purely shock. That was the remit of the tabloids that he played up to.
AC was a demonologist and all his works were attempts to summon and control demons and later the creation of the Moon child antichrist. This was totally in rebellion against the Plymouth Bretheren and though the sexual rituals he developed were all abuse based both to self and others, there is no evidence or requirement for the participation of children. If they watched he probably saw this as no more than education.
JH seems to want to pin everything that is wrong in the World today on AC as the instigator of some satanic social conspiracy. I am not an apologist for raising demons, sure AC influenced those that followed but they exercised their own sexual proclivities.
I'm a hundred percent in agreement with Levenda and believe Horsley has his own demons to deal with.
 
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#4
(1) Queen Victoria herself had the largest known collection of pornography, much of which was child pornography
Can you link to evidence for this anywhere on the Web?
and the likes of Lewis Carroll were lauded paedophiles.
He might have loved children (which is what "paedophilia" strictly means), but can you also link to evidence that he was an actual child molester?

Genuine questions, by the way -- I don't know the answers and await your evidence so I can evaluate it.
 
#5
Can you link to evidence for this anywhere on the Web?


He might have loved children (which is what "paedophilia" strictly means), but can you also link to evidence that he was an actual child molester?

Genuine questions, by the way -- I don't know the answers and await your evidence so I can evaluate it.
Hi,
Evidence on the Internet of Victorian paedophilia was widespread twenty or so years ago. It is difficult to find such now and I would advise against such research lest you fall into Alex's 'psychic detective' trap and end up being accused.
However, you don't have to dig too deep to find articles about the inappropriate and disturbing relationship between Charles Ludwig Dodgson and Alice Liddel. If you'd looked twenty years ago you would have found many plates of Alice and her sister taken by Dodgson in what can only be described as pornographic. Here is an article that lightly addresses this. https://www.google.com/amp/s/timoth...roll-a-paedophile-a-pornographer-or-both/amp/

Regarding the Royal family, like NDEs etc I can only offer anecdotal evidence. As a young man I was introduced to a family friend, the artist and convicted paedophile Graham Ovenden, who is probably the world's leading expert on Victorian child pornography. He showed me some of his shocking private collection including his 'Royals'. These have probably been seized by now although he's the sort of person who likes to brag by all accounts and would probably confirm this if you contacted him, and I haven't met him again. There is some evidence in the pornography collection at Osborne house though suspecting the current Royal proclivity for such things, I would imagine the hard core stuff is stashed elsewhere.
https://www.representingchildhood.pitt.edu/victorian.htm

Ovenden has edited Pre Raphaelite Photography (1972); Victorian Children (1972); Victorian Erotic Photography (1973); A Victorian Album – Julia Margaret Cameron and Her Circle (1975)

Aside from contesting that paedophilia was commonplace during these times, I am impressed that Aleister Crowley only had feelings for older women from a young age. Initially as a power trip, oedipus thing such as the rape of the much older maid and later as a meal ticket.
 
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Alex

Administrator
#6
Hi Alex,
I am new to forum, and have spent lockdown catching up on your fascinating podcasts and reading much, including a lot of the works of Aleister Crowley.
I have never read either Peter Levenda or my compatriot Jasun Horsley, but having read the discourse between the two, I must come down firmly in defence of Levenda and Crowley. My reasons are as follows.
JH is too preoccupied by what we now call evil and horrific, and fails to take in any historical context of what would have been considered shocking and evil in late Victorian and Edwardian Britain.
Paedophilia would unlikely have fallen into this category during those periods as the mark of the beast, in the way that it has been associated with satanic ritual in recent years.
In 1875 the year Crowley was born, the age of consent was 12 years old. Child prostitution was rife as was child trafficking, and it took W T Stead and the Armstrong case ten years later to bring it the attention of the public. Queen Victoria herself had the largest known collection of pornography, much of which was child pornography and the likes of Lewis Carroll were lauded paedophiles.
AC certainly indulged in buggery while a teenager at school, which was illegal for any age, and he was coy about his descriptions of this in his writings, however this was a product of his age and situation. He kept his homosexuality to adults in subsequent years.
In my opinion, even if he was that way inclined, for which there is no evidence, this would not have been extreme or shocking for AC to utilise given its prevalence in Society, not that it was ever his intention to purely shock. That was the remit of the tabloids that he played up to.
AC was a demonologist and all his works were attempts to summon and control demons and later the creation of the Moon child antichrist. This was totally in rebellion against the Plymouth Bretheren and though the sexual rituals he developed were all abuse based both to self and others, there is no evidence or requirement for the participation of children. If they watched he probably saw this as no more than education.
JH seems to want to pin everything that is wrong in the World today on AC as the instigator of some satanic social conspiracy. I am not an apologist for raising demons, sure AC influenced those that followed but they exercised their own sexual proclivities.
I'm a hundred percent in agreement with Levenda and believe Horsley has his own demons to deal with.
thx. the Levenda stuff is super interesting. more on him and Jasun here:

https://auticulture.com/blog/2016/07/02/crowley-ritual-abuse-levenda/

https://auticulture.com/blog/2017/03/15/amphibion-ambitions-simon-peters-dance-with-the-ambigious/

loved this exchange between the two, but it's not something you can tackle head on any more than you can approach the history of gloria steinem head on:

http://whale.to/b/how7.html

so, what's yr take on Peter Levenda's association with the TTSA? is this history believable to you?

 
#7
Well at first site that looked disturbing, but then immediately after came a comment that questioned it:
Hello, Timothy. I came to your blog by accident, actually, while researching the relationship of Charles Dodgson (aka Lewis carroll) & the Visual Arts, & while Iooking for images on the Internet to illustrate a presentation at a local Museum. I study the “Alice” books.

Judging from my first look at your blog, it is obvious it is about photography, or else that it takes a keen interest in photography. I’ve also noticed in your bio that you have a phD, & you strike me as a whole as a cultured person, mostly judging by the nice way you write & by your vast interests.

It is in the light of all this that I now take the liberty to write this comment here, knowing that you will surely appreciate the fact that my post is well-meant. I wanted to leave a comment to your blog post so as to let you & your readers know the obvious: first, that the alleged “photograph” of Lewis Carroll “kissing” Alice Liddell is in fact a cheap, rather silly composite, a (rather poorly, let’s agree) photoshopped image which I am surprised keeps luring the informed & genuine interest of cultured people towards this question of Carroll’s/Dodgson’s supposed pedophile inclinations time, & time again. How an intelligent person such as yourself could be so easily & irresponsibly deceived by this obvious & crude trick is really beyond me, I must say.

The “photograph” in question is a composite of two well known photographs, & a simple & quick search on the Web would have surely shed some light on this matter. You should have done your homework, if I may say so…

Secondly, the image of the naked girl –it has already been established by serious scholars– is not a photograph of Lorina Liddell, as it was purported to be the case, & it was certainly not Dodgson/Carroll who took this picture, despite the allegations hastily advanced in what I cannot but call a “mockumentary” –this shame of a “journalistic” piece that “The Secret World of Lewis Caroll” turned out to be.

May I finally add that your argument comparing the photography of Dodgson of the “Beggar Alice” & the fantastic photography of extremely talented Sally Mann is a rather flawed one? To say, as you now do, that Alice Liddell as a Beggar Child here “appears to have been dressed up by the photographer to fulfil some idea ( fantasy?) of the photographer rather than to reflect the child at play or in some natural setting” is both to bring into the image in question a personal reading that is, I’m afraid, tainted with personal opinion & experience, & to also ignore the circumstances of how photography in general & photographic practice in particular was thought of & practiced in Victorian times, in the very early years of the art of photography.

I hope you can correct the misinformation in this post of yours, & that you can therefore keep aiming at the excellence that you seem to be striving at in your writing here. Thank you, & greetings from Argentina.

Martín Pérez
The Lewis Carroll Society Argentina.
As Michael Larkin said (above), we have to be very careful about painting people like Carroll as paedophiles (in the modern sense) as opposed to simply liking children, or even finding the innocence fascinating. I am wary of letting words mean what you choose them to mean - to quote (more or less) from Lewis Carroll himself! Likewise, I think fully clothed pictures of girls doing nothing in particular, does not constitute paedophilia.

BTW, Please, I don't want anyone posting lewd pictures on here under any circumstances.

David
 
#8
Hi,
Evidence on the Internet of Victorian paedophilia was widespread twenty or so years ago. It is difficult to find such now and I would advise against such research lest you fall into Alex's 'psychic detective' trap and end up being accused.
However, you don't have to dig too deep to find articles about the inappropriate and disturbing relationship between Charles Ludwig Dodgson and Alice Liddel. If you'd looked twenty years ago you would have found many plates of Alice and her sister taken by Dodgson in what can only be described as pornographic. Here is an article that lightly addresses this. https://www.google.com/amp/s/timoth...roll-a-paedophile-a-pornographer-or-both/amp/

Regarding the Royal family, like NDEs etc I can only offer anecdotal evidence. As a young man I was introduced to a family friend, the artist and convicted paedophile Graham Ovenden, who is probably the world's leading expert on Victorian child pornography. He showed me some of his shocking private collection including his 'Royals'. These have probably been seized by now although he's the sort of person who likes to brag by all accounts and would probably confirm this if you contacted him, and I haven't met him again. There is some evidence in the pornography collection at Osborne house though suspecting the current Royal proclivity for such things, I would imagine the hard core stuff is stashed elsewhere.
https://www.representingchildhood.pitt.edu/victorian.htm

Ovenden has edited Pre Raphaelite Photography (1972); Victorian Children (1972); Victorian Erotic Photography (1973); A Victorian Album – Julia Margaret Cameron and Her Circle (1975)

Aside from contesting that paedophilia was commonplace during these times, I am impressed that Aleister Crowley only had feelings for older women from a young age. Initially as a power trip, oedipus thing such as the rape of the much older maid and later as a meal ticket.
Not to put too fine a point on it, I find your evidence unconvincing. That doesn't necessarily mean Dodson and queen Victoria weren't paedophiles or didn't have an interest in child pornography, but the same could be alleged of very many people, especially with the impunity that comes from the safe distance of time and a proclivity to cast aspersions without rock-solid evidence.

Wikipedia's entry on Charles Lutwidge Dodgson covers the allegations about his sexuality fairly even-handedly, and you might like to read it. Apparently, many photographers at the time took pictures of naked children; it was a different time and culture in which such pictures were meant much more as representations of childhood innocence rather than providing evidence of salaciousness. It may be that the fault lies as much in modern sensibilities as past lack of morality.

Whatever, I would hesitate to pass pronouncements on Dodgson or queen Victoria absent incontrovertible proof. None of us are mind readers, but many of us, especially today, are susceptible to constructing and/or believing in unsupported narratives. One might call it a popular contemporary pastime, well exemplified by the prevalence of fake news.
 
#9
I care not what other people wish to believe and my observations are not intended to persuade. I have personally seen enough evidence to determine my own truth regarding those individuals and many others from that period.
Here is the recent BBC take on Dodgson
The point about making presumptive judgements about the past is exactly what Levenda accuses Horsley of. In the case of Dodgson, there is plenty of evidence.
My point regarding Crowley is that the widespread paedophilia during Victorian times certainly wasn't ritualistic, even though many religious members of society may have pronounced it an Evil.
If anyone wishes to learn just how widespread, engrained in culture, and frankly horrific this was, I suggest they spend a day or two on the W T Stead resources site
https://www.attackingthedevil.co.uk/pmg/tribute/mt1.php
 
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#10
[QUOTE="Alex, post: 144395,

so, what's yr take on Peter Levenda's association with the TTSA? is this history believable to you?

[/QUOTE]

Alex,
Thanks for posting the Dolan Levenda interview. I really enjoyed your recent Dolan podcast and appreciate every UFO / ET interview you have done.
After a personal 'shared death' OBE experience in 2003, I no longer have a need to question the existence of and survival of consciousness in non local form, telepathy or precognition, all of which have been proved to me beyond any doubt.
Therefore my motivations for 'truth seeking' have recently shifted towards the UFO enigma as the last great mystery, especially as I have witnessed these craft on three occasions. My personal belief is that only ET will be able to answer the questions of human origin for humans who cannot experience extra neural consciousness.
Regarding Levenda and the history of TTSA, I can find no controversy in what is discussed. Why DeLonge approached Levenda is of little consequence, nor is the politics, Psyops or motivation of the players.
UFOs are real.
The question I ask is where is it all going? We can be shown military evidence till we're blue in face. Even if Trump stood next to the crashed retrievals and made a statement apologising for 75 years of deceit, where does that leave us?
 
#11
I care not what other people wish to believe and my observations are not intended to persuade. I have personally seen enough evidence to determine my own truth regarding those individuals and many others from that period.
My point regarding Crowley is that the widespread paedophilia during Victorian times certainly wasn't ritualistic, even though many religious members of society may have pronounced it an Evil.
If anyone wishes to learn just how widespread, engrained in culture, and frankly horrific this was, I suggest they spend a day or two on the W T Stead resources site
https://www.attackingthedevil.co.uk/pmg/tribute/mt1.php
I don't believe; I don't not believe. I try to go off evidence -- and what you presented in respect of two specific individuals, I didn't find terribly convincing. It's quite probable that London was a den of iniquity then (as now), but I didn't question that.

I questioned your seeming certainty about the two, who for all I know might be innocent of the charges made. I might have less reservations about the likes of an Epstein, who was actually convicted of paedophilia and got away with it for a long time, but Charles Dodgson and queen Victoria? Not so much, certainly so long after the event and in the absence of incontrovertible evidence.

The thing is, you mentioned them and probably didn't expect to be questioned, but IMHO, the evidence turned out to be pretty weak -- and that tends to cast doubt on one's seeming certainty in general.

My advice? Tread carefully on the Skeptiko forum: people here don't always swallow whole the narratives that others spin, however seemingly confidently. Always check and double-check the facts, and even if they seem good enough for you, ask yourself whether they'll seem so for others. If you have the slightest doubt about that, perhaps best not mention, or at least be prepared to express a little more diffidence about, them. I've found that I'm often most likely to be overconfident, and not question myself, in areas I feel quite strongly about.

Welcome, by the way. Please don't be put off posting in future, but always half-expect Spanish Inquisitors; if you do, you won't go too far wrong...;)
 
#12
Since I posted my last message, it appears you've inserted a BBC video. Sorry, but I still don't find the evidence conclusive, and neither, apparently, did the BBC people..."perhaps we'll never find out the real truth about Lewis Carroll..." implying that they haven't found out the real truth, just produced more speculation that may or may not be true.
 

Alex

Administrator
#14
The point about making presumptive judgements about the past is exactly what Levenda accuses Horsley of. In the case of Dodgson, there is plenty of evidence.
thanks for persisting with your point of view on this thread. I suspect you may be right but haven't watched the videos yet.
 

Alex

Administrator
#15
After a personal 'shared death' OBE experience in 2003, I no longer have a need to question the existence of and survival of consciousness in non local form, telepathy or precognition, all of which have been proved to me beyond any doubt.
nice... thanks for sharing this

Regarding Levenda and the history of TTSA, I can find no controversy in what is discussed. Why DeLonge approached Levenda is of little consequence, nor is the politics, Psyops or motivation of the players.
for me the question of political psyop is pretty clear-cut... but I get that that's not everyone's conclusion :)

I mean, it was certainly seems like an "operation"... it's not like they held an open congressional hearing with 50 witnesses presenting a hundred cases. It's not like they documented our longtime involvement with UFO / ET along with our illegal censorship thru informal NDAs (i.e. " say a word about this and we will kill you and your whole family"). no, they released a 12 year old video that have been on the internet for 7 years and they claimed it was never " classified." so, I think we have to really scrutinize anyone associated with this "disclosure."

oh, and then there's the political part "political psyop." yeah, it's pretty obvious that this operation came from one political group... and I'm not trying to be political here I'm just stating the obvious... trump people didn't seemed to join in on this thing.

The question I ask is where is it all going? We can be shown military evidence till we're blue in face. Even if Trump stood next to the crashed retrievals and made a statement apologising for 75 years of deceit, where does that leave us?
I wasn't aware of this. I googled it and couldn't find it. can you post a link?
 
#16
https://auticulture.com/american-cosmic1/
https://auticulture.com/when-wonder...ican-cosmic-part-two-pawns-of-disinformation/

I read Images of Man years ago, knowing it was an op. An op that Horsley tells us has been in play all this time. (BTW, Alex, I listened to his 3 interviews on his book Prisoner of Infinity: he IS a Christ follower--as against a follower of the institutional Christian religion. I have long believed that we are drawn to certain spiritualities in each incarnation, which has led me to try for nonjudgmentalism. I do agree with Jason --in his American Cosmic articles linked above--that if the PTB try to create religions it is utterly abhorrent.)
 
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#18
I am only 1/3rd the way through and... just wow! what a great conversation.

I am getting the best glimpse yet of what Alex has been "after." Jasun's outstanding. And yes, a refreshingly honest, open individual.
 
#19
(BTW, Alex, I listened to his 3 interviews on his book Prisoner of Infinity: he IS a Christ follower--as against a follower of the institutional Christian religion.
I don't self-designate that way - it would be presumptuous and un-humble of me, and not very Christian! ;) But as I said to Alex, even without looking to Rene Girard, Dostoyevsky, C S Lewis, or Rudolph Steiner for deep reading, there is something unparalleled in profundity about the Christ-ian formula.

Girard for dummies: https://auticulture.com/the-skapegoat-rene-girard-cbc-series-mp3-downloads/
 
#20
this just in
Pentagon Has ‘Off-World Vehicles Not Made on This Earth’
Bombshell: The government’s once-clandestine UFO program will reveal findings on unexplained materials and crashes.
BY ANDREW DANIELS
JUL 25, 2020:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/mi...3777/pentagon-ufo-program-materials-vehicles/

note the hat-tip to "To The Stars Academy of Arts & Science, a UFO research group from former blink-182 member Tom DeLonge."

And the clickable Amazon ads at the end of the article to Pasulka's American Cosmic.
 
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