Jeffrey_s NDE: challenges a monocorporeal world

#3
In the above diagram, I have given an approximate analysis of what I think might be happening here. It's something of a mind bender of course, but as I said elsewhere...our misunderstanding of the world may be hiding in plain sight.\

In essence, as he enters the "near death consciousness" state, that state is already in a condition capable of straddling world lines. His alarm that the plane may catch fire can be interpreted as a concern that the present world line will terminate. This gives access to (or actually spawns) world line 2 which now seems to offer survival. At this point his consciousness still straddles both worldlines. In literal terms, there are "two physical Jeffs" one in each world line. When he looks back towards the aircraft, the straddled consciousness perceives the self in the other world line. But confusion arises and he passes out. World lines collapse automatically to the outcome offering best likelihood of survival.

The rescuers find him still in the cockpit (he never left it in WL 1. However, they also find the trail of bloody towels left behind by his meandering self in WL 2. This is possible only because no fundamental paradox is generated (as would be generated, for instance, if the two physical jeff's remained in the resultant WL. In that case, mass would have multiplied and normal physics would be violated within the normal action of a world line, which is paradox.
 
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#7
Sorry Max, I'm not opposed to your ideas in principle. I think it's good for people to have novel theories and I support it, but you're trying to shoehorn them in where they don't fit. This isn't an "OBE perception." Jeff remembers grabbing the towel bundle in the cockpit. There was no one else in the cockpit. The blood on the towels was from the injury to his head, which he was aware of, and again noticed in the cockpit. He was alone on the flight.

IMO, this case is pretty much a smoking gun for multiple world lines. Short of blatant fabrication (and I will leave that hypothesis for smaller minds) it is essentially inexplicable within a "one world" setup. It's pretty fascinating really.
 
#8
Sorry Max, I'm not opposed to your ideas in principle. I think it's good for people to have novel theories and I support it, but you're trying to shoehorn them in where they don't fit. This isn't an "OBE perception." Jeff remembers grabbing the towel bundle in the cockpit. There was no one else in the cockpit. The blood on the towels was from the injury to his head, which he was aware of, and again noticed in the cockpit. He was alone on the flight.

IMO, this case is pretty much a smoking gun for multiple world lines. Short of blatant fabrication (and I will leave that hypothesis for smaller minds) it is essentially inexplicable within a "one world" setup. It's pretty fascinating really.
These are fragments from the experience of a third party. Jeff thinks they are his own, because he has incorporated them, just like most other NDE OBE experients believe they are their own.
 
#10
Nope. Not even nearly. I do admire your fundamentalism though :D
Jeff's OBE had veridical elements, was first person, and he saw no other party during the imagery.

According to my ideas, this would require a single third party to be present on the scene, some time between Jeff's crash and the time the rescuers arrived.

But Jeff said there was no one.

Because of the veridical elements, and the isolated nature of the crash site, this one case (taken at face value) had the potential to derail my ideas totally... but I was so confident that my ideas called for a single third party to have been present, that I began my own investigation.

I had to obtain the Canadian air accident reports, some third party stories, and photos of the crash site.... and bit by bit I found anomalies in Jeff's recounting of events.

Air accident reports state that the rescue services initially reported seeing a man on the lakeshore waving to their rescue plane.

This didn't stack up, so I needed to speak with Jeff to get an explanation.

I privately corresponded with Jeff over a few days. He explained that the man the rescuers had seen waving from the shoreline was not him, but a single bush pilot, who had discovered jeff's crash site and notified them to the rescue services. Jeff had been told by the rescue services, that this pilot had made a very dangerous landing near the lakeshore in his float plane, trekked inland through the wild bush to jeff's plane, then made his way back through the bush to the shore to await the rescue services.

A single third party had therefore been present on the scene, before the rescuers had arrived.

This had been an important test of my ideas, I had no prior knowledge that a single third party had been present. But I believed that my ideas were right, and thus it would only be a matter of time before I found evidence that one other single person had been present on the scene, before the rescuers arrived.

...and that's exactly what I found.

Jeff has never spoken to the bush pilot who found him, he was unconsious for a few days in hospital, and was only told about his rescue. Jeff has suffered from some severe injuries, and is crippled by PTSD. He needs to feel he was saved for a reason. Naturally my correspondence with him was a challenge. I tried to handle the questioning as gently as I could. But in the end Jeff told me he didn't want to correspond with me any more.

That's a brief but faithful narrative of my investigation into Jeff's NDE OBE.
 
#11
So, are you proposing a "quantum suicide"-like hypothesis, where the death of one body results in the individual's consciousness switching body for an alternate dimension equivalent as the other becomes unusable?
 
#12
Unfortunately Max, you are no longer talking about Jeff's case, but a case you are inventing inside your own head until it matches up with what you want to believe. If you listen carefully to Jeff's own account (which I would recommend, since he is the person involved) he clearly tells you that he is the only person in the aircraft, that he sees and picks up the bundle of towels which has been dislodged into the cockpit during the accident, and proceeds to swab himself with them as he exits the cockpit. Exactly whose wounds in your Procrustean version generate the blood on the tissues? Did his aircraft happen to randomly hit someone? Or was there already a guy randomly walking through the crash site shedding blood soaked tissues as he walked? Well...that would be convenient wouldn't it? Come on man!

I don't think it "derails" the possibility of your ideas (not that I particularly am persuaded by them) but they are just out of court in this case. Even if there were another person in the general area (*and frankly we only have your word for it...) if he wasn't present during the primary perceptions by the witness, then he/she doesn't have a bearing. What happened here doesn't seem muddled to me, frankly. It just seems fantastic. I would maintain too that the reason why a full world line split was possible in this case was precisely because it was in isolated wilderness with others not present. I suspect that something like this, less developed, is happening in ALL so called "out of body experiences" but my thoughts on that are still in process, and I'm not ready to share them as yet.
 
#13
So, are you proposing a "quantum suicide"-like hypothesis, where the death of one body results in the individual's consciousness switching body for an alternate dimension equivalent as the other becomes unusable?
In essence, yes. The basis of what I am saying here can be read in the "Berenstein Bears" thread. Remember what you have to explain is that trail of blood soaked towels, and imo, explain them in a way that doesn't do inconscionable violence to the man's own account of what happened.
 
#16
Unfortunately Max, you are no longer talking about Jeff's case, but a case you are inventing inside your own head until it matches up with what you want to believe. If you listen carefully to Jeff's own account (which I would recommend, since he is the person involved) he clearly tells you that he is the only person in the aircraft, that he sees and picks up the bundle of towels which has been dislodged into the cockpit during the accident, and proceeds to swab himself with them as he exits the cockpit. Exactly whose wounds in your Procrustean version generate the blood on the tissues? Did his aircraft happen to randomly hit someone? Or was there already a guy randomly walking through the crash site shedding blood soaked tissues as he walked? Well...that would be convenient wouldn't it? Come on man!

I don't think it "derails" the possibility of your ideas (not that I particularly am persuaded by them) but they are just out of court in this case. Even if there were another person in the general area (*and frankly we only have your word for it...) if he wasn't present during the primary perceptions by the witness, then he/she doesn't have a bearing. What happened here doesn't seem muddled to me, frankly. It just seems fantastic. I would maintain too that the reason why a full world line split was possible in this case was precisely because it was in isolated wilderness with others not present. I suspect that something like this, less developed is happening in ALL so called "out of body experiences" but my thoughts on that are still in process, and I'm not ready to share them as yet.
I spent a couple of weeks investigating Jeff's story. Unfortunately his youtube claim that no one else was present until the rescue services found him is incorrect.

There was another bush pilot who found him before the rescue services arrived.

His experience therefore mirrors the classic NDE OBE.
 
#17
What are you talking about Max? A pilot responded to his Emergency Locator Transmitter triggered by the crash and cut him from the cockpit (again, this is in his own account). I'll ask you again: whose blood is on the towels in a trail away from the aircraft?
 
#18
I am aware of your own, I meant Kai's OP hypothesis.
E. Flowers, the thing about this case is that (unless we believe that "astral bodies" bleed) we are faced with a fierce physical conundrum. You can see people struggling with it. It might be a different matter if Jeff didn't have the multiple head traumas responsible for the bleeding, along with the memory of trying to staunch that bleeding using the towels from the cockpit, as the blood was pouring into his eyes. No one else was hurt in the crash. That part isn't complicated.
 
#19
What are you talking about Max? A pilot responded to his Emergency Locator Transmitter triggered by the crash and cut him from the cockpit (again, this is in his own account). I'll ask you again: whose blood is on the towels in a trail away from the aircraft?
You don't have to take my word for it... He answered my initial question about a float pilot being first on the scene publicly on his original YouTube video comments section.
 
#20
Max, I'm not really interested in how many people came to the scene later. Of course people came to the scene. It was an accident. An ELT was triggered. Jeff himself has no memory of being cut from the cockpit, so the NDE was already long over by that point. You are clutching at straws...not sure why, really.
 
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