Jeffrey_s NDE: challenges a monocorporeal world
- Thread starter Kai
- Start date
Kai
New
I think that's just a technical mix up in the accident report. It doesn't alter the fact that there was only one injured party (and with open head trauma)...I suspect you know that, too.
Max_B
Member
Last time, before I'm out of here... For anyone who is interested.
Jeff's timeline...
---------------------
1. Crash
>> OBE with bloody towels
2. Rescue services arrive
3. Rescue services find bloody towels
4. Rescue services cut jeff down
5. Rescue services leave with jeff
Actual timeline...
-----------------------
1. Crash
2. *Float pilot arrives.*
>> OBE with bloody towels
3. Rescue services arrive
4. *Float pilot leaves.*
5. Rescue services find bloody towels
6. Rescue services cut jeff down
7. Rescue services leave with Jeff
Jeff's timeline...
---------------------
1. Crash
>> OBE with bloody towels
2. Rescue services arrive
3. Rescue services find bloody towels
4. Rescue services cut jeff down
5. Rescue services leave with jeff
Actual timeline...
-----------------------
1. Crash
2. *Float pilot arrives.*
>> OBE with bloody towels
3. Rescue services arrive
4. *Float pilot leaves.*
5. Rescue services find bloody towels
6. Rescue services cut jeff down
7. Rescue services leave with Jeff
Kai
New
What I think is most interesting about this case is that it has "superposition" written all over it. Oddly enough, that doesn't actually bother me too much. I suspect that some such thing is happening in all OBE/NDE cases actually worth talking about, and it's why we can never secure physically unequivocal evidence of information that would have to have been obtained from a vantage point outside of the subject's primary world line. If I am right, then the so-called "OBEr" is indeed having an anomalous perception, but a cosmic principle relevant to the possibility space is acting in such a way that it always prevents a fundamental paradox forming which would violate the integrity of any specified world line. In broader terms, this is why we both can and cannot have evidence for the "paranormal."
Max_B
Member
There is no need for me to invent anything, it's all publicly available...
Jeff publicly tells us about where the float pilot fits into the timeline later in his youtube video comments.
Jeff's statement of where the float pilots position on the timeline occurs, is also corroborated with the official CADORS reports etc.
Kai
New
But all of that has significance only in YOUR mind, max. What is significant in my mind (and I suspect everyone else's) is whose blood it is on the trail of towels. I have also read the CADOR file and don't see how this establishes a temporal connection between the time of Jeff's NDE and the time of rescue.
Kai
New
As you wish. Pity. Since you simply avoided the only really important question. I mean, I was prepared to discuss this with you. Now, however, I feel you're kind of a one-track-fundamentalist. Whatever.
...
Even if a float pilot found him first, why would the pilot be wiping blood from his head with paper towels, unless, he was somehow injured in the accident and decided to borrow some paper towels from the guy responsible for the crash? Also, how come the trail stops at the location that Jeff was standing when he noticed his body?
I can't see the YT video ATM, but the written account makes it seem as it he interpreted it as bi-location similar to the ones attributed to swami. His conclusion was not exactly leaning towards parallel universes, as he claimed to have experiences an epiphany of sorts, "by seeing my lifeless body in the cockpit, I was suddenly aware of one universe and we are all one piece of the puzzle."
PD- Also, I'm curious as to how "dead" he was to be exact... He doesn't seem to have undergone CA despite the severe trauma, not even brain damage. It seems like your average crisis-induced OBE until we get to the part about blood soaked towels being mysteriously found later.
PD2- I always thought that superposition would collapse as soon as it was measured by an observer. However, in this case, if Jeff was his own observer and collapsed the WF by noticing his own body dangling from the pilot's seat, why did the collapse leave such concrete evidence of the superposition behind? Even if a float pilot came and collapsed the WF for him (taking that from Max's comment), the blood in the towels was clearly part of his "superpositioned" alter ego and the location in which they were left behind was also linked to that particular timeline... They should not have been left behind like that.
Edit: Elaboration.
Even if a float pilot found him first, why would the pilot be wiping blood from his head with paper towels, unless, he was somehow injured in the accident and decided to borrow some paper towels from the guy responsible for the crash? Also, how come the trail stops at the location that Jeff was standing when he noticed his body?
I can't see the YT video ATM, but the written account makes it seem as it he interpreted it as bi-location similar to the ones attributed to swami. His conclusion was not exactly leaning towards parallel universes, as he claimed to have experiences an epiphany of sorts, "by seeing my lifeless body in the cockpit, I was suddenly aware of one universe and we are all one piece of the puzzle."
PD- Also, I'm curious as to how "dead" he was to be exact... He doesn't seem to have undergone CA despite the severe trauma, not even brain damage. It seems like your average crisis-induced OBE until we get to the part about blood soaked towels being mysteriously found later.
PD2- I always thought that superposition would collapse as soon as it was measured by an observer. However, in this case, if Jeff was his own observer and collapsed the WF by noticing his own body dangling from the pilot's seat, why did the collapse leave such concrete evidence of the superposition behind? Even if a float pilot came and collapsed the WF for him (taking that from Max's comment), the blood in the towels was clearly part of his "superpositioned" alter ego and the location in which they were left behind was also linked to that particular timeline... They should not have been left behind like that.
Edit: Elaboration.
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tim
New
The only explanation I have for this curious case is that his concussion has caused him to misremember the actual chain of events. If there were bloodied towels trailed all down the woods then he must have got out of the plane walked away and then gone back to it, got inside and dropped down "dead"
Then he left his physical body behind, instantly finding himself a spiritual observer of the scene from some distance. Head injuries can easily do this to memory but of course we can't know what really happened. It doesn't have any baring on NDE research as far as I'm concerned but I guess Kai would like to think it might. :)
Edit : I just read the whole version so my explanation doesn't work as he wouldn't have got back in his seat and hung himself upside down. Therefore I would like to admit....I haven't got a clue
Then he left his physical body behind, instantly finding himself a spiritual observer of the scene from some distance. Head injuries can easily do this to memory but of course we can't know what really happened. It doesn't have any baring on NDE research as far as I'm concerned but I guess Kai would like to think it might. :)
Edit : I just read the whole version so my explanation doesn't work as he wouldn't have got back in his seat and hung himself upside down. Therefore I would like to admit....I haven't got a clue
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The inspectors supposedly verified that he was hanging upside down when found and that there were towels laying about. I don't think that he could get back on the seat if it was inverted with a shattered arm and upper body. The official report should be able to clear if that is the case. But I don't think that he was "dead" as in dead (nothing in the written account suggests that he went into cardiac arrest), just severely injured.
tim
New
I believe (as you may have guessed :-) ) that we have an etheric subtle body and that the mind goes with it (after death)
I honestly don't know what to make of this account but I don't know what to make of lots of really strange out of body experiences, like for instance the case of the two trapped miners in the Sheppton mine collapse in 1963. What they experienced was totally bizarre.
Kai
New
Let's be clear about this. No one other than the pilot sustained injuries associated with this incident. The idea that anyone else did is a pure invention that is not part of the account.
I think he was partly cued by the doctors here, who seem to have either told him it was "dissociation" and he misunderstood them, or they misused the term "bilocation" when discussing it with him. Either way, their 'diagnosis' doesn't really grip the key points of the case.
Well, you see, it depends on what way you look at this. Obviously, in the resulting world line he is not "dead"...therefore he was severely injured. However, if two world lines merged, he "died" in one of them. In this case, it would seem, world line 2.
Well, I'm not of course claiming that there's no mystery here, and my interpretation to begin with is dependent upon the idea that we understand less about "possibility space" with our current theory of it (quantum theory) than we perhaps think we do, especially with respect to the role of consciousness. Neverthless, it is my view here that the results, although odd, maintain world line integrity and paradox exclusion. You see, there is nothing physically impossible about a bunch of blood soaked towels found outside an aircraft. And there is nothing physically impossible about a pilot hanging in straps in an aircraft cockpit. It's a retrosopective examination of the entire situation that discloses all of this could not have transpired within the same world line. Now if the pilot had been discovered alive in the cockpit AND his dead body had been discovered fifty yards away in the trees, paradox exclusion would be violated and we would no longer have world line integrity.
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Kai
New
Broadly speaking, that's what you would need to believe as an "out" to the implications of this situation. And that is the problem with this case. It's not so impossible to believe that an injured pilot may have hallucinated escaping the cockpit, tending his wounds as he went. But in that case, there should not have been a trail of tissues. It's also not that hard to believe, even for a badly injured pilot, that fear for his life over a fire or explosion may have given him the adrenalin to get out of the cockpit despite his injuries...but in that case, he should not of course have been discovered unconscious still in the cockpit (and he had to be cut out of the straps, don't forget).
So we would actually need to believe something like...he crawled back into the cockpit, got himself upside down, and somehow managed to get himself reattached to straps that would subsequently need cut. Such a scenario may seem okay in the world of a Michael Shermer or a James Randi, for all I know, but not in mine.
tim
New
I've got a whole bunch of them, Vault
Just have a quick look and see if you want me to post them
..................................................................................................
Which brings us to the events on August 13,1963, at Sheppton, located in the anthracite coal belt of Schuylkill County in eastern Pennsylvania where the famed Sheppton Mine Disaster and Rescue transpired. Three men were trapped some 330 feet beneath the earth after the collapse of a mining shaft. Some two weeks later, on Tuesday, August 27th, two of the miners, Henry Throne and David Fellin, were brought safely to the surface, after rescuers successfully drilled a 17 1/2-inch and later 28-inch borehole into their chamber, while the third miner, Lou Bova, being trapped in another part of the mine, regrettably perished.
The story of Throne and Fellin's survival and rescue were enough to captivate the world's attention, but it was what they claimed they saw and heard, while entombed, that fascinated the public, statements which both men swore as to their authenticity, both separately and publicly, emphatic declarations which they took to their graves, though others believed they had simultaneously witnessed the same hallucinations.
David Fellin's 'affidavit' was printed in the Philadelphia Inquirer on August 29, 1963, wherein he remarked how, "Now they're trying to tell me those things were hallucinations, that we imagined it all. We didn't. Our minds weren't playing tricks on us. I've been a practical, hard-headed coal miner all my life. My mind was clear down there in the mine. It's still clear."
Fellin went on to remark, how some of the things he and Throne saw, they couldn't explain in words, while on the other hand, he stated that, "On the fourth or fifth day, we saw this door although we had no light from above or from our helmets. The door was covered in bright blue light. It was very clear, better than sunlight. Two ordinary looking men, not miners, opened the door. We could see beautiful marble steps on the other side. We saw this for some time and then we didn't see it..We saw many other things like that that you couldn't explain. But I'm not going to tell you about them because I feel too deeply about all this."
Both men would also claim that they were visited by Pope John XXIII, who had died some ten weeks previously, prior to the mining disaster, and that the deceased pontiff had in reality stayed with them a full eight days!
http://www.newswebreader.com/alt.folklore.urban/WHO-SAYS-THERE-AINT-NO-GOD/1868
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...nepage&q=trapped miners 1963 sheppton&f=false
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tim
New
I'll just post the links in the post above and then I'll depart this thread, Vault. Ed Conrad, a reporter from the local newspaper in the town has the most information on the subject as he spent years talking with David Fellin. Ed's a little eccentric but he's only telling us what Fellin and throne told him.