Joseph Atwill, Why is the Deep State Interested in Psychedelics? |364|

#22
What evidence would convince you they are not "rubbish" ?
Well has rock and roll and more liberal sex achieved some great goal for the oligarchs? My Dad might have condemned them as corrupting, but do you? Aren't you grateful for more liberal sex rules?

Do oligarchs plan over a time-scale of centuries? Why should they - they have the same lifespan as the rest of us.

Some people may have had Water Mitty ideas of this sort, and probably experimented with entheogens such as LSD, but what use have they made of them?

David
 
#24
The Sioux were far from anarchistic and had a highly evolved form of government that did a good job of balancing personal freedom with social obligations and responsibilities. That's a paradox at the heart of human life. But that's what we are here to explore and experiment with. Corbett's "voluntarism' is a total cop out. All these conspiro deep state types that denigrate socialism with such fervor are very, very suspect. (think We Are Change, Corbett, Jones et al) We are a society and some things need socializing while maintaining respect for the individual. It ain't easy. Nobody said it would be. The constitution with current amendments is a good place to start.

The Iroquois (Haudenosaunee) constitution is a better place to start, and that's where ours started! Our whole system of government came much more from them than Rome or Hobbes or Locke or Greece. Ask Benjamin Franklin or John Adams. The Haudenosaunee had the only functioning democracy in the world at time of contact and at time of the Am. Revolution. We copied them. Also feminism began in upstate New York- why? Because of the Iroquois. Phenomenal people. Not anarchists by any stretch.
 
#26
Atwill is spot on about the use of psychedelics to degrade society. The first point is: that is exactly what has happened! Everything is much worse since LSD was introduced. Except yoga is more widespread...pun intended. Great interview...

Tripping and "expansion of consciousness" becomes a pursuit unto itself. As if that should become the purpose of life...kinda hard to go to a city council meeting or form a community board or run for office or ponder the paradox of freedom and responsibility while tripping or hoping to trip soon. Fuck it I'm just gonna get high. Mushrooms totally debased the Aztec culture, who practiced human sacrifice and public cannibalism. (Made great art though). Mushrooms are not intrinsically "spiritual". They can have some limited spiritual benefit and some uses for healing but as a lifestyle they are TOTAL disaster. Look at Jerry Garcia. Died a fat junkie after all those trips and ecstatic visionary art making? He should, by their logic, be the wisest coolest guy on the planet.

Notice the McKenna's never make concrete suggestions for improving society besides tripping. Never challenge the bankers, the war machine. Them, the Dead, Ram Dass, Echart Tolle almost NEVER ever threaten the ruling oligarchs with even the tiniest suggestion. And some of them don't even seem to encourage being a better person. Just ecstasy, and vision seeking, or total inner peace man, or "why so angry...meditate...chill". Sure the hippies protested the war but that's mostly because they were getting drafted. And the war machine is bigger than ever...what happened? This is a huge topic...

Atwill goes way overboard at times- he thinks John Lennon was wittingly involved with this plot. But what "they" knew, after decades of close study of LSD, and huge amounts of human experimentation, is that LSD makes you believe in LSD!! You really think that if enough people trip, then peace will rule the world!!! I know I did as a teenager. Lennon escaped and sealed his death warrant by making the brave challenge to power...but It does kind of turn you into a pod person, like invasion of the body snatchers. Like a vampire bite. But not permanently. For that they add sex and TV and fake "spiritual" cults.

There is a book written before LSD was discovered (which brings the whole myth of it's discovery into question: St. Peter's Snow, that explains the whole lot. it is based on the fact that Hallucinogens have always been used by secret societies during their initiations, while a near death experience deep fear experience is created, bonding the participant to the society....in effect they are intitiating us.

Read "Laurel Canyon" by Dave McGowan. The hippies were a total fabrication, a social engineering project. Discover Vito Paulekas, the first hippie- and Jim Morrison's connection to the military. Funny how he never even came out strongly as anti-war even. Woke up this morning and got myself a beer.
 
#28
You
I have a lotta respect for James Corbett, but he lost it when I followed this line of thought here:
http://skeptiko.com/dr-alexander-wendt-and-james-corbett-clash-over-inevitable-one-world-state-301/

folks like James lean to Anarcho-capitalism and volunteerism as viable solutions when they are built-on/dependent-on deep state controlled infrastructure... doesn't make any sense to me.

what can we do... wave the flag and fight the Petroyuan :)
I interviewed Corbett once and asked him what any of us could do, on an individual level to resist the Deep State. He gave me several things like; growing your own food, getting off the grid, not falling into the trap of mass consumerism, meditation, etc. that made a lot of sense. No need to wave the flag, just participate as little as possible.
 
#29
You

I interviewed Corbett once and asked him what any of us could do, on an individual level to resist the Deep State. He gave me several things like; growing your own food, getting off the grid, not falling into the trap of mass consumerism, meditation, etc. that made a lot of sense. No need to wave the flag, just participate as little as possible.
I disagree. this is like recycling newspapers in yr weekly garbage pick-up... might make you feel good but that's about it... uses more energy than saves. feels like backdoor materialism. Petroyuan would turn the US into China... you think things are bad now...
 
#30
You

I interviewed Corbett once and asked him what any of us could do, on an individual level to resist the Deep State. He gave me several things like; growing your own food, getting off the grid, not falling into the trap of mass consumerism, meditation, etc. that made a lot of sense. No need to wave the flag, just participate as little as possible.
Use a local savings bank or credit union rather than a national bank.

I agree that meditation is helpful, it reduces materialistic (consumerism) attitudes, and learning to control your own mind makes you more resistant to other people trying to control it..

If you follow politics, you can figure out which candidates are with the deep state and who are against them and vote accordingly on election day. (Try to find out what politicians really say not what "journalists" claim they say. Click through to the original source to decide if it is reliable. Look for videos or direct quotes. Try to verify things for yourself using the internet, don't trust "journalists" to "fact check" their work.)

Read the constitution and bill of rights and support politicians who support the constitution and the rule of law because those are the only tools that exist to reign in the deep state.
 
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#31
From the transcript:

" Joe Atwill: ... they couldn’t care less about the democratically controlled components of democracy"

This is 100% correct.


In this video former CIA officer Kevin Shipp explains the relationship between the shadow government and the deep state.

The shadow government he says consists of the 17 intelligence agencies and is led by the CIA.

The deep state he says is the military industrial intelligence complex which is a group of corporations that receives $1 trillion a year in tax revenues spent by the government on military and intelligence contracts.

The owners of media corporations cooperate with the CIA and publish stories to influence public opinion.

This web of corporations and intelligence agencies controls the elected government.

The shadow government can do whatever it wants because it can classify any information about its activities it wants. There is no government control over it. Its budget is secret.

The military industrial intelligence complex controls congress through
campaign donations
lobbying
providing jobs when senators and staffers leave congress.​

The shadow government influences

The President by
providing false information
influencing elections​

Congerss by
manipulating congressional hearings
withholds clearances from representatives and senators
classifies documents to conceal illegal activity
blocks congress using state secrets privilege​

The judiciary by
State secrets privilege - they can shut down any case against them by classifying any information they choose.
Everyone
Through the cooperation of media corporations that publish stories to influence public opinion.​

There is much much more information in the video.
http://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-506-post-9568.html#pid9568
"$21 Trillion dollars is missing from the US government. That is $65,000 for every person in America. That is more than our entire national debt!"

https://solari.com/blog/

https://missingmoney.solari.com/

$21 Trillion dollars is missing from the US government. That is $65,000 for every person in America. That is more than our entire national debt!

What’s going on? Where is the money? How could this happen? How much has really gone missing? What would happen if a corporation failed to pass an audit like this? Or a taxpayer?

This means the Fed and their member banks are transacting government money outside the law. So are the corporate contractors that run the payment systems. So are the Wall Street firms who are selling government securities without full disclosure. Would your banks continue to handle your bank account if you behaved like this? Would your investors continue to buy your securities if you behaved like this? Would your accountant be silent?

This is the reason that there is such a strong push to change or tear up the US Constitution. This is why members of the establishment say it is “old,” “outdated!” This is why there is such a push for gun control. Don’t buy it! We can use the Constitution to get our money and our government back. It is time to enforce the US Constitution.
I saw this fake news on info wars but it turned out to be true.

The interview with Katherine Fitts starts at 44:55


Senator Chuck Schumer, "If you take on the intelligence community, they have six ways from Sunday of getting back at you." This statement is tantamount to an admission that the intelligence agencies control the elected government. Elected officials are afraid of them, and cannot restrain them or cross them.
 
#32
Here is an interview of a parapsychologist and one of the most active and prominent psychedelics researchers in the world, David Luke, by Carlos Alvarado.

I think it would be relevant to the topic which is being disussed here, and will provide some good diffrence to global conspiracy claims debated now.

And, Alex - how many times have you interviewed Atwill already? This one is apparently the third. You seem to be a bit too sympathetic to him - a sympathy which he, in my opinion, hardly deserve. One interview with him was fair - he deserved to listened to as much as any other scholarly heretic; his positions on the historicity of Jesus, while being highly questionable and quite specualtive, were at least, rationally assessible. The second interview were largely a rehearsal of the first one, with a concentration on the extremely dubious idea that the whole cultural trends may be result of conspiratorial actions of the powerful. And the latter one - this one - is a nothing but a trip into a reactionary fantasy filled with claims that the cultural revolution of 1960s - 1970s is a result of a malevolent global conspiracy.

As I already said above, I, having nothing against the notion of local conspiracies by cliques within elite circles (they do happen), consider the idea that such cliques may covertly shape large-scale cultural and social changes is exceptionally weak and dubious at best, rationally indefensible at worst. Covertly organising a JFK-style political assasination, a 9/11-style false-flag (state) terror attack or even a full-blown Pinochet-style coup is entirely possible for a group of people with enough access to insititutional power. Reshaping the cultural code of whole societies is impossible to be achieved in a conspiratorial way - it may be done only with a public and massive action.
 
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#34
It's not a fantasy. It's documented fact.
No it isn't. For it to be unequivocally true would require an acknowledged end game, a game plan and evidence of complicity at all levels. There is no such evidence. Victorian and Edwardian pharmacists were tripping out on their inventions without any assistance from Deep State. Gin palaces as parodied by Gillray and Hogarth predated opiates as the Western drug of choice. The medieval world got off its tits on fly agaric and psilocybin mushrooms, growing in the nearest field and hedgerow without any assistance from The Man. Unless you believe it's lizard people all the way down, common humanity requires no covert or overt encouragement to get totally blasted.

Hippies didn't arrive fully formed, their sensibilities were informed by a range of cultural precedents with known roots.
 
#35
It's not a fantasy. It's documented fact.
Documented fact?! Really?!

COINTELPRO (heard about it?) is a documented fact - an incontrovertibly real Deep State operation, a FBI-orchestrated attempt to "disrupt, discredit and destroy" (in FBI agents' own words) rebellious Libertarian Left movements of mid-20th century. There are loads of declassified documents concerning it.

And these documents tell us clearly that ruling elites feared and hated the counterculture rebels and were willing to make their hands more than a little dirty to defame and devastate them.

These historical facts of undeniable covert repression against the Libertarian Left by power elites are hardly compatible with the not-so-well documented claims of modern global-conspiracist reactionaries that the counterculture movement was an incredibly grandiose and complex intentional operation by these very elites. Claims that are grossly implausible and improbable even without such clear counter-evidence, I would add.

And, if you will insist that your claims are "documented facts" (and you almost certainly will), I ask you to name your PRIMARY sources - this is, not just sources of theories, but of the original data. Are there any declassified documents clearly stating that the sexual revolution was a colosssal orchestrated operation, like COINTELPRO was?

And - being a suppoter of alternative explanations for 9/11 attacks and JFK assassination, I still wouldn't claim that they are "documented facts". There are no documents stating that either of them were Deep State acts, and there almost surely no such documents will be found, ever, since the organisers of such events are definitely smart enough not to record their covert planning and implementation in official documentation. There is nothing surprising here - it would be stupid for the bank robbers, for example, to leave the papers containing plans of their heist in an empty safe (or anywhere else). And a bureaucrat taking a bribe from a corporate CEO will hardly demand him to draw up a written contract. The alternative explanations which I defend are based on an open official and public data - such as state-made reports, videos made on a scene of events, interviews with witnesses, etc. - and logical inferences from them.
 
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#36
For it to be unequivocally true would require an acknowledged end game, a game plan and evidence of complicity at all levels.
False. The vast majority of people involved had no idea they were participating in a weaponized anthropology program.

In CIA documents these people are called "Unwitting Participants".
 
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#38
It's hard to wrap my mind around what's really going on here or what the ultimate end game is. There seems to be clear evidence that leftist groups in the 60-70's were infiltrated by military intelligence/cointelpro -- presumably to thwart/discredit/disband such counterculture/antiwar groups. But what of the fact that many of the musicians and hipsters and psychedelic gurus of these same years also had strange ties/affiliations to military intelligence and the like? (e.g., Jim Morrison's father, who just happened to be the admiral behind the Gulf of Tonkin incident, Frank Zappa, Timothy Leary, Gordon Wasson, etc.)? Seems clear there was some wider attempt at some Bernays-like cultural engineering going on in the sex/drug/rock&roll scene -- that were not just later infiltrations of "organic" movements. What else to make of these outright fabrications, affiliations, and connections?

But I guess I'm still not clear how it benefits these military intelligence groups to have people getting high using psychedelics in general -- as opposed to under certain specific observable conditions (i.e., MKUltra)? Is it, as Atwill suggests, to induce psychosis/debase society to make it far easier to control?

I do like the thought of entheogens helping us to channel into a greater reality, but at the same time, the connections between such covert agencies/military intelligence to the LSD/psychedelic usage of the 60-70's certainly makes me suspicious of the current 'entheogens as a path to greater consciousness' craze. What's really going on here?

Also have questions/thoughts about Gloria Steinem and the supposed intentional social engineering of "feminism." As a woman, I'm pretty happy that we have moved beyond the Mad Men era of Valium-numbed women-at-home or in low pay/low status secretary pools. So why is this Steinem was a CIA agent supposed to be so nefarious/bad? I understand that "feminism" was supposedly just one more engineered step towards the intentional destruction of the family unit as a stabilizing structure -- but as someone who saw both my grandmother and mother negatively affected/disempowered by the more virulent patriarchal system of their days, and because it is quite clear there were deep dysfunctions in "families" back then as well (e.g. incest, domestic violence, child abuse, alcoholism, loveless spare-the-rod/spoil the child parenting, etc.), I don't see this evolution of women's roles in greater society as a "bad" thing - even if it was engineered.
 
#39
What is the "Libertarian Left" ? Gloria Steinem? Timothy Leary? Aldous Huxley? The Tavistock Institute?

I never heard this term "Libertarian Left".
This is an umbrella term for people combining Leftist (or, at least, Left-leaning) politeconomic position will liberatory sociocultural attitudes.

In 1960s and 1970s, such description fits liberatory movements of opressed social groups (feminism / women liberation, black liberation, gay / lesbian liberation, child liberation etc.), Left anarchists and libertarians, free spirituality / human potential movements, peace / anti-war movements, free speech movement, environmentalist movement etc.

It also fits the people who are inspired by their ideas nowadays. Such as me.

Or, to make it visible for you, here is my Political Compass test results:

Your Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: -8.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.21

Of course, Political Compass test is not the best one, in my opinion - there are some questions where my variants of answers are not possible at all (the limits of its square are essentially the limits of the current Overton Window, and many of my positions are far beyond it) - yet it still provide some info where I stand.
 
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#40
False. The vast majority of people involved had no idea they were participating in a weaponized anthropology program.

In CIA documents these people are called "Unwitting Participants".
False is not a counter argument, no matter how often its repeated. The hippies were for the most part privileged war babies of middle class parents, reacting to the dead hand of convention.
They took the long established attitude of the Beats, disillusioned service men, the narcotic addictions that had dogged the jazz era, a string of utopian cultish behaviours going back well into the 19th century, and put them together with a menu of watered down eastern mysticism and left wing political sympathies. They did almost nothing that hadn't been done before. They met with a rise in authoritarianism and red paranoia, which resulted in busted heads at Kent State and Hell's Angels at Altamont. By 1970 the dream was over and the thing had splintered into a hundred parts, ranging from country revival, to feminism, to heavy metal, to the neo-cons of today. Not to mention Sheldrake's Morphic Resonance and the world wide web.

Attributing those diverse strands to a NWO Illuminati, when the changes have been exhaustively plotted in biography and autobiography, shows a complete lack of parsimony. The smoking gun was consumerism, a post war boom, unprecedented spending power among the young, and a global conflict that had severed old certainties. Follow the money. Rock and roll emerged seamlessly from rhythm and blues, from the delta, from jazz, all of which had been toting hard long before lysergic acid diethylamide and men in black.

Please come up with something better than weaponised anthropology as a leitmotif. Anthropology has been weaponised since Cain slugged Abel.
 
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