Joseph Atwill, Why the Bible is Pro-Roman |464|

Alex

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#1
Joseph Atwill, Why the Bible is Pro-Roman |464|
by Alex Tsakiris | Sep 22 | Skepticism
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Joseph Atwill’s insights about the relationship between power and religion seem more relevant than ever.

photo by: Skeptiko
[Clip 00:00:00 – 00:00:31]
That’s a clip from Gladiator, and although the movie is fiction, people who really know Roman history, like today’s guest Joseph Atwill, will tell you that the movie is spot on when it comes to the kind of political manipulation, mind control and conspiracy wielding that the Romans had mastered 2000 years ago.
Of course, this movie has another side to it, a very deep interpersonal family and spiritual angle to it, which, as we all know, plays a much greater role in the rough and tumble world of world politics and social engineering. I love this next piece.
[Clip 00:01:17 – 00:01:27]
Today’s guest on Skeptiko, Joseph Atwill, author of Caesar’s Messiah, has become a real cornerstone in my understanding of how we should approach so many of the deepest, most important questions about religion and spirituality, well, from a Skeptiko perspective at least. At any rate, it was so great to reconnect with Joe and be reminded how especially relevant his work is today.
Joseph Atwill: [00:01:55] Yeah, I actually am quite, intrigued and supportive of your perspective on consciousness because of its political aspect. And, of course, given my background, obviously the first thing I’m looking at is how are our ideas about ourselves manipulated politically? Have we been basically given an idea about our consciousness that is untrue, just so that we can be more easily ruled? And the idea that we are an illusion is, in my mind, a decadent political position. And it’s not even worthwhile discussing in terms of it as spirituality, because you already have this enormous problem, that if you think of yourself as an illusion, if you think of life as something that is absurd or meaningless, then you basically don’t have the right kind of resiliency, in terms of coherent political perspective.
 
#2
"The idea that consciousness is an illusion is decadent politically"

I am not sure what the word "politically" adds to this, but the idea that this is a decadent concept seems very true. I mean what scientist should want to assert that consciousness is something - an illusion - that only makes sense if consciousness is real!!! Even asserting it seems to break the rules of science.

I think his main argument is extremely plausible, and it really does bring us to the question of what/who it is that some people see while in their NDE's! My suspicion is that mythical beings can appear as real entities out there.

I lost interest in all the psyop discussions later in the podcast. I almost get the feeling that the CIA meddles in all kinds of things simply because it can!

David
 
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#3
I get the bible psyop but it leaves so many questions in my mind unanswered, if it was a psyop it certainly ran away from source as these things allways seem to. Who is pulling the strings long term or is there nobody pulling the strings, back to that old question Still unanswered.
The same thing seems to have happened with islam, the wars of islamic expantion went on for a long time before anything was written down about mohammed and most of his companions were dead by that time. If that was a psyop the only entity that seems to benefit is a black rock in mecca.
Paul is the rock on which the church stands, is there a parallel there? Interestingly the Arab expansion could only happen because plague had wiped out the persian and eastern roman armies.
"The idea that consciousness is an illusion is decadent politically"

I am not sure what the word "politically" adds to this, but the idea that this is a decadent concept seems very true. I mean what scientist should want to assert that consciousness is something - an illusion - that only makes sense if consciousness is real!!! Even asserting it seems to break the rules of science.

I think his main argument is extremely plausible, and it really does bring us to the question of what/who it is that some people see while in their NDE's! My suspicion is that mythical beings can appear as real entities out there.

I lost interest in all the psyop discussions later in the podcast. I almost get the feeling that the CIA meddles in all kinds of things simply because it can!

David
David to the NDE experiences, something to consider, with regressive hypnosis in curing a malady some hypnotists that cannot regress their patients to the source story (ie bad pain in back = bayonet in trenches in "former life") they concoct a story and this too works.
We are probably getting it all wrong as our basic assumptions are incorrect.
 
#5
David to the NDE experiences, something to consider, with regressive hypnosis in curing a malady some hypnotists that cannot regress their patients to the source story (ie bad pain in back = bayonet in trenches in "former life") they concoct a story and this too works.
We are probably getting it all wrong as our basic assumptions are incorrect.
Thinking about it, why would simply knowing the original cause of an injury bring about healing? In my opinion, it is because of an acceptance and a state of peace which the story (preferably the actual one rather than the concoction) can bring.

Getting to the actual story may be a mixed blessing. On the one hand, it may allow an explanation and understanding of a whole range of other issues, and bring peace there as well. But it may also open a can of worms, bringing up stressful and distressing scenes which may be troubling and disturbing. Once a door is opened it may not be so easy to close, it may instead be necessary to deal with, or learn to live with what has been revealed.
 
#6
Thinking about it, why would simply knowing the original cause of an injury bring about healing? In my opinion, it is because of an acceptance and a state of peace which the story (preferably the actual one rather than the concoction) can bring.

Getting to the actual story may be a mixed blessing. On the one hand, it may allow an explanation and understanding of a whole range of other issues, and bring peace there as well. But it may also open a can of worms, bringing up stressful and distressing scenes which may be troubling and disturbing. Once a door is opened it may not be so easy to close, it may instead be necessary to deal with, or learn to live with what has been revealed.
There is something very important in Trance plus intention, if you want a clue look to the wild wild country series and you can see osho (eyes are a give away) in a trance as he communes with his followers. A lot of very good hypnotists find that if they trance too they get better results.
 
#8
We need to face the fact that Atwill's thesis (if true) is the ultimate put down of Christianity - the religion isn't just allegorical, or mythical, or in need of interpretation, it was a deliberate trick, devised for a completely different (and arguably evil) purpose.

I think everyone needs to think about that stark truth - because in truth most of us have at least remnants of Christianity in us. I also think that truth may drive so many 'scholars' to reject his ideas.

David
 
#10
The concept of Christianity being a cult brings to mind the influence and danger of immersion into cults in general. The recent death of my son could be at least partly attributable to his membership in a club of weightlifters where steroid use and the resulting enlarged hearts are common.
Although I am a Christian I do not belong to any Christian sect. What Jesus explains to us through the Gospels about love for one another and forgiveness for those who trespass against us (due to such a person's vulnerability to the temptations of the "Prince of this world", the Devil) are not lost on me. The Person and nature of Jesus Christ is my guidance through these dark days and the Angel He has provided for me is my Spiritual and physical protector and this has been proven to me in many miraculous instances. I pray now for my good son's deliverance (and my own eventually) to the Kingdom Jesus has prepared for all those who, "Believeth in Me and abideth by my sayings." Although the untimely death of my son has brought what will probably be a lifelong sorrow to my heart I will not question God nor forsake my Faith acquired through the Gospel of Jesus.
Mr. Atwill may say what he wants. The Romans probably became Christian because it worked for them as individuals as it works for us as individuals, by our Faith.
 
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#12
Nice interview, Alex.
I find Atwill's ideas very plausible, but I have never been able to take the Bible on faith - and believe me I gave it a good try for some years. The incoherence of the book has always bothered me, and so I'm willing to give a respectful listen to anyone who can attempt to make sense of the provenance of the thing.
Has anybody read Barnaby Williams' Anno Domini ? A somewhat similar premise, but with a totally degenerate Paul as the villain who creates the Catholic Church. It's pretty gruesome but also plausible, to me.
 
#13
We need to be very careful in the way we think about these things especially in the way we allways lump things togeather as a species.
Christianity is a psyop = Christians are therefore cultists or idiots. Moslems occasionally suicide bomb = all moslems are terrorists etc etc.
I have allways found the bible very confusing as well but that would point away from a psyop. The truth is allmost allways to be found on a middle path.
 
#14
Atwill is a crank.

Ten minutes of research will turn up facts that blow his goofy theory out of the water.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=joseph+atwill+debunked
Well I only searhed one of those links, and here was the most concrete objection:
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/book-reviews/a-critique-of-joseph-atwills-covert-messiah/
Atwill claims that Christianity didn’t exist before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. But even the Roman historian Tacitus places Christian persecution under Emperor Nero in AD 64—well before the destruction of Jerusalem. Tacitus even calls the Christian movement an “immense multitude.”
It may well be that Atwill has an answer to that - and indeed I hope he will join us on the furum!

I don't find it helpful to call someone's theory 'goofy' - he didn't sound 'goofy' and if it is goofy, I'd like to know in what way.

David
 
#15
I think it’s revealing that Joe Atwill hit upon his theory of parallelisms when he was researching for the ‘historical’ Jesus. When he came up short on this front, as I feel anyone must, he then cried foul and was primed to find only narrative devices and literary scaffolding, and miss the message of these texts. It strikes me that it takes the same paranoid and literal cast of mind to see a spiritual invocation to forgive your political masters as necessarily a PSYOP, as it does to see the wearing of masks for the sake of public health in a pandemic as nothing less than an assault on Liberty.
 
#16
I think it’s revealing that Joe Atwill hit upon his theory of parallelisms when he was researching for the ‘historical’ Jesus. When he came up short on this front, as I feel anyone must, he then cried foul and was primed to find only narrative devices and literary scaffolding, and miss the message of these texts. It strikes me that it takes the same paranoid and literal cast of mind to see a spiritual invocation to forgive your political masters as necessarily a PSYOP, as it does to see the wearing of masks for the sake of public health in a pandemic as nothing less than an assault on Liberty.
Here’s a thought - what if Josephus’ ubiquitous histories were used as the model for Christian texts, to suggest in a way that would resonate widely in the Middle East, that the Roman appropriation of Jewish mythology would result not in a Roman messiah but a Christian one .. As such, the Christian writings serve to undo the legacy of Josephus the Turncoat!
 
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Alex

Administrator
#18
I get the bible psyop but it leaves so many questions in my mind unanswered, if it was a psyop it certainly ran away from source as these things allways seem to. Who is pulling the strings long term or is there nobody pulling the strings
maybe nobody. it seems to me that it would be very easy for the next gen figure out the playbook and just pick up where they left off. modern version here:
The Jerry Falwell Jr. resignation scandal has sex, corruption ...
 

Alex

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#19
Although I am a Christian I do not belong to any Christian sect. What Jesus explains to us through the Gospels about love for one another and forgiveness for those who trespass against us
I get your point to a certain extent, but isn't it really about one's relationship with god / christ consciousness. isn't that what really matters here?

as soon as we start giving power to "gospels" we start slipping IMO.
 
#20
I get your point to a certain extent, but isn't it really about one's relationship with god / christ consciousness. isn't that what really matters here?

as soon as we start giving power to "gospels" we start slipping IMO.
I am a lapsed catholic with background in philosophy, creative writing, and theology. I completely agree it has to do with one’s relationship to god/CC, but I don’t think that means we have to be so suspicious of the texts. I think they are incredibly sophisticated, the Old Testament as well, and far wiser than to be reduced and mapped onto the latest political scandal. See my post above, I think Atwill has it backwards, but it takes a mythicist perspective on Jesus to see it!
 
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