Kevin Day, Navy UFO Contact After-Effects |403|

Again, from an Idealist perspective, people could be regarded as not so much "separating" from their bodies during NDEs (a dualistic way of putting it) as entering a state where, temporarily, they don't perceive their bodies and brains as being, respectively, their lives and individual mentations. Instead, since the notion that these icons are literal agents is no longer sustainable, they lose this ordinary perception and connect/reconnect with a more refined, "non-physical" perception of their truer nature; with their being processes occurring in the consciousness of MAL (though they might not apprehend it in exactly those terms).
Doesn't this explanation illustrate the problem with using an idealist model - even if it is ultimately right, it is very, very confusing and messy to use (or is it just me?).

The reality as reported by NDE experiencers fits much more neatly into a Dualist model, and as I keep on saying, scientific theories don't really need to represent ultimate truth. Physics is happy to use QM and GR, knowing that these two foundational theories of modern physics are incompatible. If ultimately the Dualist model turns out to be underpinned by an Idealist model, nothing will have been lost!

If asked, I think physicists would claim that either of those two theories will probably only need the tiniest tweak - at least in normal conditions.

David
 
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Its the life review that convinces me of something radically new exists that we haven't encountered.
Some NDE's contain explicitly paranormal features. For example, in a few NDE's, the spirit (or whatever you want to call it) drifts outside the room where the drama is taking place, and observes other things. Some people have learned their NDE that some relation X is dead, and later they learn that X had died, but they were not aware of it. Some people even become aware of future events in their own life.

Skeptics use a lot of ingenious ways to 'explain' a subset of NDE's and then discard the rest as 'anecdotal'!

David
 
Again, from an Idealist perspective, people could be regarded as not so much "separating" from their bodies during NDEs (a dualistic way of putting it) as entering a state where, temporarily, they don't perceive their bodies and brains as being, respectively, their lives and individual mentations. Instead, since the notion that these icons are literal agents is no longer sustainable, they lose this ordinary perception and connect/reconnect with a more refined, "non-physical" perception of their truer nature; with their being processes occurring in the consciousness of MAL (though they might not apprehend it in exactly those terms).
If subjective experience is computational a la QM, then this appears to be an ancestor simulation. Computation has many properties similar to 'being' non-physical. Its dismissed as vague but so is idealism.

"miracles" occur in simulations, no?
 
To me, it doesn’t point to the innocence of Trump. I believe that he’s probably not guilty of Russian collusion in the election, but he’s quite likely to have been involved with them in all sorts of shady deals. But that’s of little interest, at least to me.
It doesn't interest me either - politics just isn't done by super ethical people!
Trump, like Brexit, has been a mechanism which has shown the true nature on all sides of our respective societies. The inability to compromise, the dogma, the raging hypocrisy.

Both mechanisms have been a mirror which has been raised, we ought to take time to learn from the sordid picture it has revealed, some self-reflection is desperately called for.
I don't really like the effort to pour criticism on both sides as if they were equal. Trump was alected on promises that he seems to be trying to keep - including trying to disengage militarily, which hopefully may become easier after this report.

The Democrats seem to want to use the legal system, not to get justice, but just as a battering ram. I really admire the President for managing to stand up to that sort of bullying. Imagine if someone had a beef against you, and got a lawyer friend to bring case after case against you.

David
 
The reality as reported by NDE experiencers fits much more neatly into a Dualist model, and as I keep on saying, scientific theories don't really need to represent ultimate truth. Physics is happy to use QM and GR, knowing that they are incompatible. If ultimately the Dualist model turns out to be underpinned by an Idealist model, nothing will have been lost!
David brings up a great point. In our research labs - we held the null hypothesis H(0) as our scientific standard against which to develop further hypotheses (see The Elements of Hypothesis). Yay! for the null hypothesis. It is indeed science. ;;/?

Out of 93 H(x) hypotheses we tested for, 90 of them failed to falsify the null. From a scientific standpoint, and based upon linear inductive evidence, we venerated the null hypothesis (current understanding). The great preponderance of inductive evidence showed that the null might indeed be true.

We did not believe the null hypothesis however - not even once. Therein resides the difference. The null in science is a working model - and not a personal cosmology.

Finally 3 critical tests showed that the null was indeed false. They did not show what the ultimate answer was - they only needed to show that the null was false. That happened at 3:45pm on a Friday afternoon - and was found by a junior tech in the lab. I locked the lab doors and called our sponsors immediately. Many beers were had.

That is where we reside. Battling with people who actually believe the null hypothesis, think that falsification is an 'anecdote' (which it is not) and regard such ignorance of inference as somehow indicative of their 'scientific literacy'.
 
David brings up a great point. In our research labs - we held the null hypothesis H(0) as our scientific standard against which to develop further hypotheses (see The Elements of Hypothesis). Yay! for the null hypothesis. It is indeed science. ;;/?

Out of 93 H(x) hypotheses we tested for, 90 of them failed to falsify the null. From a scientific standpoint, and based upon linear inductive evidence, we venerated the null hypothesis (current understanding). The great preponderance of inductive evidence showed that the null might indeed be true.

We did not believe the null hypothesis however - not even once. Therein resides the difference. The null in science is a working model - and not a personal cosmology.

Finally 3 critical tests showed that the null was indeed false. They did not show what the ultimate answer was - they only needed to show that the null was false. That happened at 3:45pm on a Friday afternoon - and was found by a junior tech in the lab. I locked the lab doors and called our sponsors immediately. Many beers were had.

That is where we reside. Battling with people who actually believe the null hypothesis, think that falsification is an 'anecdote' (which it is not) and regard such ignorance of inference as somehow indicative of their 'scientific literacy'.
Are you a neopositivist?
 
No....

I would be the opposite of this. I employ the discipline of positivism, where appropriate - to refine an established understanding. But I am a heteroductionist at heart. I look for violations of our wisdom, because those are more scientifically informative than are confirmations of our wisdom. :)
Ah, hence your 'like' of my post using supervenience.

Me? Don't take me too seriously. I am a sophist by nature. Want to see why? Its revealed by my iq test. Overloaded on verbal / analogical reasoning.

But when I am not tilting my head at windmills and other droll fantasies I do ask pertinent questions. Sometimes to mislead, but usually I just want to play.
 
No....

I would be the opposite of this. I employ the discipline of positivism, where appropriate - to refine an established understanding. But I am a heteroductionist at heart. I look for violations of our wisdom, because those are more scientifically informative than are confirmations of our wisdom. :)
Oh oh! Do you identify as a contrarian? Those make for nice discussions among equals. :)

Philosopher kings need Jesters! Do you see where I stand? I know my place in this hierarchy. I did say 'droll' so I prefer dry, 'serious science' humor.
 
I don't really like the effort to pour criticism on both sides as if they were equal. Trump was alected on promises that he seems to be trying to keep - including trying to disengage militarily, which hopefully may become easier after this report.
Well, I don’t keep scores and which offence is worse? Trump’s blind support of Israel, including giving billions each year to a country which is around 22nd in the world in terms of balance books,with a surplus around 10billion dollars, while the USA is ranked dead last, at 202, with a deficit of 466 Billion! Or the democrats hypocrisy, running around like headless chickens trying desperately to reset the game? Yay, Make America Great Again Mr President.

And if he’s really trying to disengage militarily, he’s making a piss-poor effort. Where has he done anything positive in this regard?

Israel has a stranglehold on the US, Trump is in their debt.

 
Oh oh! Do you identify as a contrarian? Those make for nice discussions among equals. :)

Philosopher kings need Jesters! Do you see where I stand? I know my place in this hierarchy. I did say 'droll' so I prefer dry, 'serious science' humor.
Yeah, I see where you stand. No, I'm not a not contrarian... So if we employ a medieval King's court as our analogy, I am typically a Lancelot in my role. :) More of a strategist and a troubleshooter. Which made me a good intelligence professional. (There is no 'I' in team, but there is often a hidden 'me')

That does not make me necessarily neopositivist nor contrarian.
 
Hmm. :eek:
"among equals". Ya know experts within the same category are not supposed to contradict each other. As for me, its just food for thought.

Its off topic, but what will sam parnias effort produce circa 2020? Will there be memory formation without an active (at least classically) brain? And the timing issue...
 

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That does not make me necessarily neopositivist nor contrarian.

(There is no 'I' in team, but there is often a hidden 'me')
You are what you need to be. Is there an identity of thought and being -- a unity of subject and object that equals truth? Its not that we are mappers, we are the territory creating the map -- and when it overlaps that is the being of truth.This occurs within a superstructure of rules, from which physics is part of...but we don't know how that got there. We just observe, predict, describe and claim it was there all along. Miraculously not recognizing our supreme creativity was in the forgetting, the hiddenness. Not from an objective independent reality, but from our own being.

I like idealism. Its kinda bullshit though. Tell me something new. Ah! but there is nothing new. Only truth. And on and on. The sophistry never ends. I can though. Engineers don't cross their fingers but scientists are a different bunch.

But you! You are neither engineer or scientist. The knight. That is beautiful.
 
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And if he’s really trying to disengage militarily, he’s making a piss-poor effort. Where has he done anything positive in this regard?
This what really matters, and maybe I'd give him 8/10 given all the constraints he is under.

He hasn't started another conflict!

He seems to have set Syria on a road to recovery as far as he can.

He hasn't attacked Iran, or Venezuala, or NK!

I sincerely hope that the final end of the Mueller investigation will help him achieve more in NK, with Russia/Eastern Europe, with the US Southern border, etc.

In politics those on the traditional Left have had a tendency to condemn everyone who even tries because they can't achieve everything immediately, and that lets the usual warmongers back into power.

Regarding Israel, I do think things are complicated. Right now Hamas are incredibly intransigent - sending their own unarmed civilians up against a border with the deliberate intent of using the confusion to get their trained killers into Israel to kill on as a big as possible. Unfortunately the fact that some Moslems do the same sort of thing here in Britain and elsewhere, has changed the way i feel about thae Arab-Israeli conflict. I hope that a re-invigorated President Trump will have some good ideas.

David
 
Hmm. :eek:
"among equals". Ya know experts within the same category are not supposed to contradict each other. As for me, its just food for thought.

Its off topic, but what will sam parnias effort produce circa 2020? Will there be memory formation without an active (at least classically) brain? And the timing issue...
I don't think that even a complete failure of that experiment would mean very much - I mean if you push the requirements up far enough you can always get a negative result.

If there were an environment where the hospital authorities considered this experiment vital, it might be different, but from what I read, it was difficult even to get those shelves (to hold secret objects) fitted. We also should ask whether it is reasonable to expect someone just coming to terms with the fact that they are staring down at their dead body, will necessarily take in seemingly irrelevant information of that sort.

As for timing - the idea that NDE's are confabulated after the incident is over - that certainly doesn't fit those NDE's where the person comes back with verifiable information of what went on in the resuscitation room. The supposed explanation for this, is that people's senses are still working to some extent. However, I have puzzled about this - if I have a tooth filling, I am completely conscious, and not seriously distressed, yet I can't possibly describe what went on - what tools were used, their shape, etc. etc. Can you?

David
 
Regarding Israel, I do think things are complicated. Right now Hamas are incredibly intransigent - sending their own unarmed civilians up against a border with the deliberate intent of using the confusion to get their trained killers into Israel to kill on as a big as possible. Unfortunately the fact that some Moslems do the same sort of thing here in Britain and elsewhere, has changed the way i feel about thae Arab-Israeli conflict. I hope that a re-invigorated President Trump will have some good ideas.
This is a very disappointing answer David.
Unarmed civilians are being picked off by the IDF snipers, there’s no possible justification for their action. None.

 
I don't think that even a complete failure of that experiment would mean very much - I mean if you push the requirements up far enough you can always get a negative result.

If there were an environment where the hospital authorities considered this experiment vital, it might be different, but from what I read, it was difficult even to get those shelves (to hold secret objects) fitted. We also should ask whether it is reasonable to expect someone just coming to terms with the fact that they are staring down at their dead body, will necessarily take in seemingly irrelevant information of that sort.

As for timing - the idea that NDE's are confabulated after the incident is over - that certainly doesn't fit those NDE's where the person comes back with verifiable information of what went on in the resuscitation room. The supposed explanation for this, is that people's senses are still working to some extent. However, I have puzzled about this - if I have a tooth filling, I am completely conscious, and not seriously distressed, yet I can't possibly describe what went on - what tools were used, their shape, etc. etc. Can you?

David
I wasn't specific enough. I know the OBE aspect is likely to fail. Even if it does succeed, that doesn't mean a change in cultural narrative analogous to ufo's on the whitehouse lawn.

I would love to chat about it in a different thread? More specifically, the meaning of 'proof' and changes in paradigm, eg brain = mind materialism. Also, far more important is ANTICIPATION of the correct beliefs. If we want to change worldview and paradigm, we would want to get it right most of the time.

So, what specifically is predicted to happen to the brain and nonphysical mind during an nde/obe? When do the memories form, after all?

Confabulation doesn't fit the research data well, no.
 
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