Leslie Kean, Investigative Journalist Tackles Survival After Death |342|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Mar 14, 2017.

  1. Alex

    Alex New

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2013
    Messages:
    2,521
    I didn't... she's done a goo job, but it's not a thorough review of the field. For example, she doesn't mention Jeff Long or Eben Alexander either.
     
  2. malf

    malf Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2013
    Messages:
    3,989
  3. KeithA

    KeithA New

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2013
    Messages:
    152
    There've been these meetings at CERN, the European particle physics lab on Science and Religion on trying to find a common language. Groundbreaking I thought, so thought to share.

    The fact is, there are religious particle physicists working at CERN who have no difficulty in reconciling their science and faith.
    Small summary of the three meetings https://www.wiltonpark.org.uk/event/wp1433/

    I just came across this third (November 2015) one to do with "a common understanding of logic" which I thought really interesting in that it seems to relate somewhat to Prof. Raymond Moody when he talks about different kinds of logic.
    In his book Paranormal Ray quotes Hume on the immortality of the soul ... "By the mere light of reason it seems impossible to prove the immortality of the soul. Some new species of logic is required for that purpose and some new faculties of the mind that they may enable us to comprehend that logic."
    This issue comes up in a class he was in at university. What was interesting was that his professor then pointed him to Dr. George Ritchie, a psychiatrist at the connected medical school who had a famous NDE.

    But there's a bit in the final Wilton Park/CERN report on logic that sounds quite similar to do with God's existence ... Section 20
    "The existence of God cannot be explicitly proven using ontological means, but instead can represent personal belief. This would therefore imply that there may indeed be different logical basis for the disciplines."
    Final Report here https://www.wiltonpark.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/WP1433-Report.pdf

    So to understand the soul's immortality (and God, one presumes), you can't do it through scientific logic but those at the CERN meeting don't seem to be dismissing the concept of God at all - just that some new (but valid) way of thinking is needed to understand God.
    Anyway, just thought it fascinating that, among scientists at CERN (there were philosophers and theologians as well in the meetings) new ideas in logic are being discussed in respect of God, at least.
     
    Ian Gordon likes this.
  4. MarkT

    MarkT Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2017
    Messages:
    7
    I've only taken time to read half the comments posted so far, but I think I have something unique to contribute.

    I recently came across evidence from Bruce Greyson that memories of past lives maybe real memories, but not of a past life. In other words, I'm saying it's possible to have someone else's memories without having been that person.

    In the last few minutes in this video () Greyson confirms some strange cases where more than one person remembers the same past life. He also confirms cases where the past life didn't end until after the child recalling it was born (the time between death and rebirth is a negative number!) These cases are incompatible with the classic understanding of reincarnation. There seems to be something else going on. If something else is going on, who's to say any report of a past life is a case of reincarnation. We can test (in some cases) the accuracy of the memories. We cannot test whether the person with the memories is the same entity who originally acquired those memories. Kean briefly explores other explanations for reincarnation in Surviving Death, but she missed this case.

    Furthermore, it is common for a life review to be experienced from the perspective of other people. You could say that some people who had an NDE have memories of other people as if they were that person, except the interpretation of those memories is not of having been that person in a past life. So there is one known way to obtain someone else's experiences workout having been reborn.

    Sorry I've repeated myself. I'm used to being misunderstood, so I'm just trying to be clear.
     
    Laird, K9!, Ian Gordon and 2 others like this.
  5. Alex

    Alex New

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2013
    Messages:
    2,521
    thx. I agree, this is a valuable insight... but I don't take it as a "who to say... we need more science..." kinda way, but as an example of how we need to dig deeper into what our wisdom/spiritual traditions teach us.
     
    MarkT likes this.
  6. cker

    cker New

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    14
    Leslie Kean: It sure does and there’s plenty of questions that are unanswerable as far as I’m concerned, and probably always will be unanswerable and I think that’s the thing about near-death experiences...There are forces in operation here that we can’t explain and that science can’t explain and I like the fact that it opens up a door to, sort of the mystery of the world around us and we’ll never be able to..."

    F#*@ mystery...we've had to put up with it since the dawn of time! Sadly, Leslie, even as an investigative journalist can't imagine a time that science actually could answer this question. Meanwhile, science could NOW provide both research and answers if it wasn't for the fact that the materialists have a complete stranglehold on science with 'our minds are made up don't confuse us with the facts' position. The Deep hypothermic circulatory arrest (DHCA) is a surgical technique that involves cooling the body to temperatures below 20°C (68°F), and stopping blood circulation and brain function for up to one hour.[1][2] It is used when blood circulation to the brain must be stopped because of delicate surgery within the brain, or because of surgery on large blood vessels that lead to or from the brain. DHCA is a form of carefully managed clinical death in which heartbeat and all brain activity cease"... the exact operation that Pam Reynolds underwent for her brain tumor is the answer! Clearly, if we can induce clinical death for up to an hour for a brain tumor removal, we can have NDE researchers in the room during these operations to invite the patient with clear directions (as they report they can hear the conversations in the room) to a computer generating random images linked to time, so that when they are resuscitated they can report these random images that are hidden from the operating room personnel. If these researchers had been in the room with Pam and the study set up, we would have not just her amazing story but the facts. If she returned and reported an image 30 minutes into the operation we would have had our black swan and know that consciousness exists outside the body. The 'it's simply the brain going offline or online' argument would be crushed forever.

    The AWARE study fell short in many ways... in fact, as a designer, I suspect it was designed to fail. It relies on people who are having a cardiac arrest in a hospital to figure out on their own with no prompting at the time of death, to magically look for (why would they?) and find a cardboard image hanging from the ceiling...no time is linked to the image when viewed obviously, never mind how a stagnant image is easily viewed by anyone standing on a chair. NDEers are paying attention to the fact that they are now dead and being pulled by the light and without direction would never decide to seek out an image.

    The number one question we in this NDE community need to insist that science tackle, which requires only a fraction of the funding that goes to NASA or CERN is this: Who are we?...wet computers or spirits having a human experience? AI/the singularity is right around the corner...are we really ready to merge with computers before we even know who we are? We have millions of NDE antidotal reports already ...another million won't matter...we need to insist on proof.
     
    Laird, K9!, Obiwan and 1 other person like this.
  7. K9!

    K9! New

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,559
  8. Alex

    Alex New

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2013
    Messages:
    2,521
    thx for the link. Leslie seems like a great person, but so many things about this story just don't add up. It all sounds incredibly scripted:

    Like many others, I was astonished at Tom’s ability to win the trust of these impressive advisors, who at first wished to remain anonymous yet obviously believed that this information belongs to all of us.

    ...Regarding UAP, he told me that since so many smart, credible people have seen them, he has concluded they must be real. “That means it can be done - these unusual flight characteristics can be done. So how do you do it? I want to dig into how you do it. It can be done!”
     
  9. K9!

    K9! New

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,559
    It does all seem very odd. George Knapp mentioned DeLonge on his last C2C, hinting that there would be an announcement soon. Now Leslie Kean posts an article stating that the announcement from DeLonge will be streamed live on the internet today. Kean and Knapp are usually very credible journalists.... but this whole thing looks so dodgy. I'll guess we'll find out today... or we won't because something will delay things yet again.
     
  10. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    4,114
    Well yes but:

    1) The technologies in question might be far, far ahead of modern science - imagine people 300 years ago being inspired by seeing a modern computer - that wouldn't help them build one!

    2) I don't think I would like the US to be in possession of some super new technologies that might be used to fight war!

    As K9 said, it seems they really want our money! On the other hand, it is interesting that Harold Puthof is involved!

    David
     
    Trancestate and K9! like this.
  11. Wormwood

    Wormwood Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2017
    Messages:
    296
    Fantastic book. Im about halfway through it. I was only thinking earlier last week that somebody should write a book that combines all the survivalist data, ghosts, NDE's, Mediumship etc and combine all the evidence into one book, and she nailed it. Maybe such a book exists already but I was not aware of it. All the others I had come across focused on, generally, one or the other.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017

Share This Page