Lighting The Void: Why Evil Matters

#3
Another big question: At the outset Joe points out that most people want to get off the planet, given the latest op in the social engineering agenda, which is generic evil to be sure, et alia. At the end he asks the age old question 'whence evil'--a question which has plagued humanity forever. So I wonder why you named your book Why Evil Matters-- how many have ever said it does not matter?
 
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Alex

Administrator
#4
TY, Alex. One question: why do you say you don't like to use the word demonic? Seems right on the money, and I like the term demonic ritual abuse as well.
sure... Demonic is ok... long as we all understand we have no clue how these extended realms really work and therefore no clue what a"demon " means... but I get your point, I mean, we've come to some consensus of what demonic means and it seems to fit here.
 

Alex

Administrator
#5
Another big question: At the outset Joe points out that most people want to get off the planet, given the latest op in the social engineering agenda, which is generic evil to be sure, et alia. At the end he asks the age old question 'whence evil'--a question which has plagued humanity forever. So I wonder why you named your book Why Evil Matters-- how many have ever said it does not matter?
I guess I'm trying to point out that to our science centered culture doesn't allow for"evil" except as a social construct. so, in this sense, evil doesn't matter. there's no real evil... for example, there are no demons like we were talking about above

but, there's a huge head fake here because there's the whole other part of our entertainment culture that has this "wink and a nod, all the cool kids are evil", kind of vibe. I think this is another version of"evil doesn't matter"... do what thou wilt :)

then you have the cultish religious groups... let's pick on christians for a minute because it's the easiest example :) who only allow evil to matter within the narrow domain of their dogma. evil can matter only if they get to define all the rules regarding how when why and where.

So I'm saying evil matters because all that other stuff is fake.
 
#6
I guess I'm trying to point out that to our science centered culture doesn't allow for"evil" except as a social construct. so, in this sense, evil doesn't matter. there's no real evil... for example, there are no demons like we were talking about above

but, there's a huge head fake here because there's the whole other part of our entertainment culture that has this "wink and a nod, all the cool kids are evil", kind of vibe. I think this is another version of"evil doesn't matter"... do what thou wilt :)

then you have the cultish religious groups... let's pick on christians for a minute because it's the easiest example :) who only allow evil to matter within the narrow domain of their dogma. evil can matter only if they get to define all the rules regarding how when why and where.

So I'm saying evil matters because all that other stuff is fake.
I really like your second paragraph!

In general religion no longer believes in demons, due to the secularization brought on by the Enlightenment. There is a famous adage: "when folks gave up God, they gave up demons." But yes, the fundys still believe in demons, though in their own utterly dogmatic paradigm. And a fundy neighbor I used to talk (argue) with at great length, so that I saw up close and personal what a biblical literalist is like, told me I am way too concerned with demons. Too funny.

A VITAL FYI, Alex, if you can stomach it: http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/09/you-cant-go-home-again.html : A blog article on remote viewing, which includes the following: "By the mid-70s, a number of Livermore personnel had learned of SRI's [remote viewing] program, and become sufficiently alarmed by the security implications that they decided to investigate psychic phenomena for themselves. As Schabel tells it, "the Livermore group quickly found themselves involved in more strangeness than they could handle...they began to feel that they were collectively possessed by some kind of tormenting, teasing, hallucination-inducing spirit."

This blogger also made me start to question the afterlife sacred cows, such as the Scole Experiment and even mediumship.. What if demons (and/ or ETs) enter into the picture, reading the minds of those involved and manipulating "reality." Oy vey, as an empath who literally gets sick from absorbing all this material on evil, I can only take it in chunks. Bless you for your courage.
 

Alex

Administrator
#7
A VITAL FYI, Alex, if you can stomach it: http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/09/you-cant-go-home-again.html : A blog article on remote viewing, which includes the following: "By the mid-70s, a number of Livermore personnel had learned of SRI's [remote viewing] program, and become sufficiently alarmed by the security implications that they decided to investigate psychic phenomena for themselves. As Schabel tells it, "the Livermore group quickly found themselves involved in more strangeness than they could handle...they began to feel that they were collectively possessed by some kind of tormenting, teasing, hallucination-inducing spirit."

This blogger also made me start to question the afterlife sacred cows, such as the Scole Experiment and even mediumship.. What if demons (and/ or ETs) enter into the picture, reading the minds of those involved and manipulating "reality." Oy vey, as an empath who literally gets sick from absorbing all this material on evil, I can only take it in chunks. Bless you for your courage.
wow... great point... I've been thinking about this a lot lately also. I mean, doesn't it seem like the phenomena keeps telling us you don't know shit, and we keep going oh yeah but look at this new shinny thing
 
#8
wow... great point... I've been thinking about this a lot lately also. I mean, doesn't it seem like the phenomena keeps telling us you don't know shit, and we keep going oh yeah but look at this new shinny thing
Here is the blog just after the one I gave you on remote viewers: .https://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/12/down-scole-hole.html?fbclid=IwAR3Ly05q2QJMTz97sQrfe8dCiVx_wQ9SgYEDQC6OFqJ9ssf8cn3S07Yef20
A telling point is that the same tiny ufo's s ("hologram-like") showed up at the Scole experiment. Yesterday I watched the major online doc on Scole and a lot of it seemed suspicious this time around. The blogger also says Russell Targ sat in at Scole--I am trying to track this down. BTW this blogger seems inactive now but there is a forum at the website that is booming; I am afraid it is probably really on the radar.
 
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#9
long as we all understand we have no clue how these extended realms really work and therefore no clue what a"demon " means...
I am really hoping that someday you'll relent just a few degrees (and i mean this with gentle humor) and decide to have Stephen Skinner on. Of anyone out there on the circuit he seems like he might know the most about what demons are, what the hierarchy is, how it works, etc. If it's possible to have an informative conversation (while still in keeping with the Skeptiko spirit) he might be able to offer some insight into things.

Tom Zinser seems very knowledgeable but his info may not be the be all end all. Putting his version to the test might be the scientific thing to do, ya?
 

Alex

Administrator
#10
I am really hoping that someday you'll relent just a few degrees (and i mean this with gentle humor) and decide to have Stephen Skinner on. Of anyone out there on the circuit he seems like he might know the most about what demons are, what the hierarchy is, how it works, etc. If it's possible to have an informative conversation (while still in keeping with the Skeptiko spirit) he might be able to offer some insight into things.

Tom Zinser seems very knowledgeable but his info may not be the be all end all. Putting his version to the test might be the scientific thing to do, ya?
I'll tell you what... If you want to reach out to Dr. Skinner and share with him all the things I've said about... like the last time I was on Rune Soup... well, if he wants to come on after that, I'd be happy to have him join me on Skeptiko :)
 
#11
Ok, time to throw in...

Greg Carlwood had Phoenix Aurelius (an alchemist) on his show last week (July 15) and I believe the segment I wish to share isn't in the "free" show link, so the times I am stating are from the "Plus" show.

At 44:00 Greg asks the big question that leads to Phoenix addressing what he thinks these elite are doing with regards to dabbling in the occult and Phoenix eventually addresses what he believes they may be doing to prolong their lives.

Regarding both alchemy and specifically life extension, Phoenix states some individuals of these are not likely using alchemy (as alchemy doesn't lead to a prolonged life.)* He also states with regards to alchemy, few of them have any real understanding of true alchemical practice.

What he believes "the majority of people who are living really long" are less likely to be using alchemy (much less to have any real grounding or understanding of such) but they do have a working understanding of various forms of theurgy - Goetia (Stephen Skinner is heavily into this among other areas of theurgy and views it as "a technology"), Babylonian "money magic," or... adrenochrome rituals..."

"Theurgy (/ˈθiːɜːrdʒi/; from Ancient Greek: θεουργία, theourgía) describes the practice of rituals, sometimes seen as magical in nature, performed with the intention of invoking the action or evoking the presence of one or more deities, especially with the goal of achieving henosis (uniting with the divine) and perfecting oneself."

Phoenix continues - "...that are actually pretty mindless and easy to perform if a person wanted to go down that path..." "

“… and if they wanted to exploit their own evolution and karma…”

Phoenix suggests you either you evolve or you devolve.

“…there’s not one right way or a wrong way of going about things its just that some things are, from my perspective, terribly unethical to perform and if you really consider the people who have gotten the farthest… its those who go the slowest who ultimately end up accomplishing the most. …slow and steady.” “…and I think that the wise typically tend to do those things (slow and steady) where those who have not worked on their own personality flaws and insecurities and so on and so forth tend to want the most evolution the fastest and the most direct way to getting what it is that they want even if it comes with a heavy price. And those of us who go a little bit slower and consider ethics and other things we just choose to abstain from those particular types of practices.”

Chester's Commentary:

Phoenix looks at these "short cuts" as causing a "devolution" of the being which result in exactly the opposite of what one might think a short cut would produce.

The implications, if Phoenix turns out to be right, is that indeed, this "thing" we are experiencing has a goal, evolution of the being. I never heard him say "soul" but I wouldn't be bothered if he used that word - the key point is that we are individuated. Phoenix later refers to us a sparks of the creator [I am afraid to type the word with a capital "C" here on the Skeptiko forum, but I do so privately all and only to emphasize for myself, my respect for the idea I have a creative origination point (and seeing that as likely true for us all)].

So evolution... towards what? And so throw in the other word he used - "ethics" ...this clarifies his view. We can go either direction, evolve or devolve... that devolution has a price (karma and more ground to make up) and that the central component is that "doing what thou wilt" is done ethically (or not).

This entire post was to make the following point - Phoenix shared his view in a sort of "matter of fact way" - …there’s not one right way or a wrong way of going about things which, if we only heard that, would sound quite like how Alex took Grant Cameron's statement "there's no right or wrong." But listening further, Phoenix calmly clarifies his position on the matter and that position essentially reflects what Alex gets so worked up about - there's a moral imperative!

I get why Alex gets worked up. I get why I get worked up. Yet also, I see how when I get all worked up emotionally, and I begin to respond reactively and in a clear, adversarial way, I fear I might be energetically "devolving" the situation which could result in a devolutionary step for both myself and the one(s) I am engaged with.

And I think the bottom line regarding good and evil may boil down to that which is evolutionary for each individual and that which causes the opposite. And that "at the end of the day" [the end of one's eternal journey - yes... perhaps a paradox] each of us gets to our destination one way or another.

My final comment is about this "end." And my understanding of ancient traditions is that there are various "schools of thought" in relation to that end - one being that we are simply microcosmic reflections of the macrocosmic reflection of creation and thus, "destined" regardless of our "wishes, desires, wants, etc." And there are schools of thought where the individual has the ability to choose a retention of their individuation whereby they stay on the path of personal evolution and, as an example, "reality paradigms" such as shared by Steve Briggs, for example, or, as another example, the opportunities for "immortality" that some of the Norse traditions propose suggest the possibility of eternal (individuated) life.
 

Alex

Administrator
#12
Ok, time to throw in...

Greg Carlwood had Phoenix Aurelius (an alchemist) on his show last week (July 15) and I believe the segment I wish to share isn't in the "free" show link, so the times I am stating are from the "Plus" show.

At 44:00 Greg asks the big question that leads to Phoenix addressing what he thinks these elite are doing with regards to dabbling in the occult and Phoenix eventually addresses what he believes they may be doing to prolong their lives.

Regarding both alchemy and specifically life extension, Phoenix states some individuals of these are not likely using alchemy (as alchemy doesn't lead to a prolonged life.)* He also states with regards to alchemy, few of them have any real understanding of true alchemical practice.

What he believes "the majority of people who are living really long" are less likely to be using alchemy (much less to have any real grounding or understanding of such) but they do have a working understanding of various forms of theurgy - Goetia (Stephen Skinner is heavily into this among other areas of theurgy and views it as "a technology"), Babylonian "money magic," or... adrenochrome rituals..."

"Theurgy (/ˈθiːɜːrdʒi/; from Ancient Greek: θεουργία, theourgía) describes the practice of rituals, sometimes seen as magical in nature, performed with the intention of invoking the action or evoking the presence of one or more deities, especially with the goal of achieving henosis (uniting with the divine) and perfecting oneself."

Phoenix continues - "...that are actually pretty mindless and easy to perform if a person wanted to go down that path..." "

“… and if they wanted to exploit their own evolution and karma…”

Phoenix suggests you either you evolve or you devolve.

“…there’s not one right way or a wrong way of going about things its just that some things are, from my perspective, terribly unethical to perform and if you really consider the people who have gotten the farthest… its those who go the slowest who ultimately end up accomplishing the most. …slow and steady.” “…and I think that the wise typically tend to do those things (slow and steady) where those who have not worked on their own personality flaws and insecurities and so on and so forth tend to want the most evolution the fastest and the most direct way to getting what it is that they want even if it comes with a heavy price. And those of us who go a little bit slower and consider ethics and other things we just choose to abstain from those particular types of practices.”

Chester's Commentary:

Phoenix looks at these "short cuts" as causing a "devolution" of the being which result in exactly the opposite of what one might think a short cut would produce.

The implications, if Phoenix turns out to be right, is that indeed, this "thing" we are experiencing has a goal, evolution of the being. I never heard him say "soul" but I wouldn't be bothered if he used that word - the key point is that we are individuated. Phoenix later refers to us a sparks of the creator [I am afraid to type the word with a capital "C" here on the Skeptiko forum, but I do so privately all and only to emphasize for myself, my respect for the idea I have a creative origination point (and seeing that as likely true for us all)].

So evolution... towards what? And so throw in the other word he used - "ethics" ...this clarifies his view. We can go either direction, evolve or devolve... that devolution has a price (karma and more ground to make up) and that the central component is that "doing what thou wilt" is done ethically (or not).

This entire post was to make the following point - Phoenix shared his view in a sort of "matter of fact way" - …there’s not one right way or a wrong way of going about things which, if we only heard that, would sound quite like how Alex took Grant Cameron's statement "there's no right or wrong." But listening further, Phoenix calmly clarifies his position on the matter and that position essentially reflects what Alex gets so worked up about - there's a moral imperative!

I get why Alex gets worked up. I get why I get worked up. Yet also, I see how when I get all worked up emotionally, and I begin to respond reactively and in a clear, adversarial way, I fear I might be energetically "devolving" the situation which could result in a devolutionary step for both myself and the one(s) I am engaged with.

And I think the bottom line regarding good and evil may boil down to that which is evolutionary for each individual and that which causes the opposite. And that "at the end of the day" [the end of one's eternal journey - yes... perhaps a paradox] each of us gets to our destination one way or another.

My final comment is about this "end." And my understanding of ancient traditions is that there are various "schools of thought" in relation to that end - one being that we are simply microcosmic reflections of the macrocosmic reflection of creation and thus, "destined" regardless of our "wishes, desires, wants, etc." And there are schools of thought where the individual has the ability to choose a retention of their individuation whereby they stay on the path of personal evolution and, as an example, "reality paradigms" such as shared by Steve Briggs, for example, or, as another example, the opportunities for "immortality" that some of the Norse traditions propose suggest the possibility of eternal (individuated) life.
thanks gesture... Excellent. I listened to the first 10 minutes of this THC but bailed when I thought he was just going down the alchemy path. it sounds like he has a much more nuanced understanding. I'll have to go back and listen :)
 
#13
I really like your second paragraph!

In general religion no longer believes in demons, due to the secularization brought on by the Enlightenment. There is a famous adage: "when folks gave up God, they gave up demons." But yes, the fundys still believe in demons, though in their own utterly dogmatic paradigm. And a fundy neighbor I used to talk (argue) with at great length, so that I saw up close and personal what a biblical literalist is like, told me I am way too concerned with demons. Too funny.

A VITAL FYI, Alex, if you can stomach it: http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/09/you-cant-go-home-again.html : A blog article on remote viewing, which includes the following: "By the mid-70s, a number of Livermore personnel had learned of SRI's [remote viewing] program, and become sufficiently alarmed by the security implications that they decided to investigate psychic phenomena for themselves. As Schabel tells it, "the Livermore group quickly found themselves involved in more strangeness than they could handle...they began to feel that they were collectively possessed by some kind of tormenting, teasing, hallucination-inducing spirit."

This blogger also made me start to question the afterlife sacred cows, such as the Scole Experiment and even mediumship.. What if demons (and/ or ETs) enter into the picture, reading the minds of those involved and manipulating "reality." Oy vey, as an empath who literally gets sick from absorbing all this material on evil, I can only take it in chunks. Bless you for your courage.
Re the "Afterlife Sacred Cows",


I don't know if anyone has heard of Wes Penre, and I'm really not sure about a lot of his stuff BUT, he has an idea that the afterlife is full of trickster beings who pretend to be angels or similar, and that the life review, karma and going back in a reincarnated body is a sort of scam! That it has been perpetuated to feed off human souls, and it works because we are all ignorant about the nature of the world beyond so we just believe the first thing that we see when we die. Apparently we can just ignore whatever being we meet on the other side and emancipate ourselves from the cycle of reincarnation by breaking through the barrier that surrounds earth, which keeps us here and prevents us from seeing the universe in all its glory in the afterlife....

And off topic, but he also was on point years ago about the direction mankind is probably now heading with the technological singularity. This IMO has been advanced by the COVID situation with vaccines and all. But I guess that depends if you think that has sinister implications, which I believe it may.


It's been a while since I have spent time looking at his stuff so this was from memory, but I've never forgotten about that afterlife stuff for some reason. Because who knows, humans tend to mess around with each other here, why would the afterlife be any different?

Food for thought ;)
 
#15
Re the "Afterlife Sacred Cows",


I don't know if anyone has heard of Wes Penre, and I'm really not sure about a lot of his stuff BUT, he has an idea that the afterlife is full of trickster beings who pretend to be angels or similar, and that the life review, karma and going back in a reincarnated body is a sort of scam! That it has been perpetuated to feed off human souls, and it works because we are all ignorant about the nature of the world beyond so we just believe the first thing that we see when we die. Apparently we can just ignore whatever being we meet on the other side and emancipate ourselves from the cycle of reincarnation by breaking through the barrier that surrounds earth, which keeps us here and prevents us from seeing the universe in all its glory in the afterlife....

And off topic, but he also was on point years ago about the direction mankind is probably now heading with the technological singularity. This IMO has been advanced by the COVID situation with vaccines and all. But I guess that depends if you think that has sinister implications, which I believe it may.


It's been a while since I have spent time looking at his stuff so this was from memory, but I've never forgotten about that afterlife stuff for some reason. Because who knows, humans tend to mess around with each other here, why would the afterlife be any different?

Food for thought ;)
Yep... same with some of the Gnostic streams... and also, Simon Parkes - "don't go to the light traps!"

If that were true, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
 
#16
I am really hoping that someday you'll relent just a few degrees (and i mean this with gentle humor) and decide to have Stephen Skinner on. Of anyone out there on the circuit he seems like he might know the most about what demons are, what the hierarchy is, how it works, etc. If it's possible to have an informative conversation (while still in keeping with the Skeptiko spirit) he might be able to offer some insight into things.

Tom Zinser seems very knowledgeable but his info may not be the be all end all. Putting his version to the test might be the scientific thing to do, ya?
I agree. I believe my method is one that can be tested and I hope t6hat happens. I don't hold my breath for a government grant.
 
#19
David... not sure where yr going here. Tom guy spent 30 yrs meticulously applying his methodology with hundreds of patients. How would "floating the idea with Gerod" give us anything meaningful.
Well he wrote "I believe my method is one that can be tested ", so I guess he would like some kind of independent way of confirming what he thinks is going on. His patients could conceivably be getting better by some variant of the placebo effect.

I was thinking that if Gerod would cooperate with 'patients' that were in fact well balanced volunteers, it might be possible to experiment with something that was actually blinded.

David
 
#20
Well he wrote "I believe my method is one that can be tested ", so I guess he would like some kind of independent way of confirming what he thinks is going on. His patients could conceivably be getting better by some variant of the placebo effect.

I was thinking that if Gerod would cooperate with 'patients' that were in fact well balanced volunteers, it might be possible to experiment with something that was actually blinded.

David
I think he might have been suggesting that other similarly skilled clinicians could follow his methodology.
 
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