Marisa Ryan, Certified Psychic Medium Tackles Big Picture Questions |398|

Alex said:

I get your point. I can't imagine what it's like to talk to dead Spirits all the time And then be asked to judge the veracity of their answers about the big picture questions. One thing seems certain - There's a lot of contrary conclusions from Spirit/s.
This comment seems like the perfect entry point for me into this forum as a long time listener to the show and to answer Alex's request for more forum engagement from listeners.

On many occasions I've heard this assertion about unreliable information from spirit/ET during Skeptiko and other podcast interviews. A fine observation, but to use Alex's level 1, level 2 framing, I keep waiting for the level 3 discourse on this issue on Skeptiko.

I have a small point, but I think it is worthy of consideration. If we are living through a test of some kind in this existence, or at the very least a series of challenges that are something akin to an alchemical process (i.e. refinement of the soul,) it seems to me that misinformation or deception from beyond the veil may be, to use an Alan Watts-ism, the wrong thing working in the right way.

I'd like to see more discussion around the interplay between the macro and micro considerations on this issue. To put it succinctly, what may be disorder at one level, may be order at another. The process of fire is destructive, but it is also regenerative.

The nub of my point is that a negative can seed a positive event, and vice versa, in perpetuity. It seems instructive, to me at least, to look at issues of information from the other side through this lens.

Moreover, the implications for the messages an individual receives, may have implications for that individual (eg. Whitley Streiber,) and society in general, in all configurations (++, +-, -+, --).

I'm personally more comfortable with a Taoist approach to considering the benefits or otherwise of misinformation from spirt/ETs, than being stuck in the variables of despair over whether the information is good/evil, true/false.

Decartes' vision that "through number and measure, nature can be conquered," may be looked at in an amoral fashion, as both an advancement and a regression, depending on your worldview.

So, the level 3 jumping off point for me is, are these messages designed to shape the individual or society or both? Are we in a game of bumper bowling where the messages help course correct individuals/society towards some end? Perhaps, course correction is all there is, with no fixed destination in mind?

I'd like to hear some of the minds greater than my own here bat this around. I'm at an impasse in my own thinking on the subject.
 
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Hi Alex and forum
The point for me Alex, is did you already have an expectation of "a female 'nurturing' medium" and as a skeptic, if you enjoy perceived contradictions that may have helped 'fix' the plausibility? According to Quantum Physics our (un?) conscious attention has an influence (not forgetting the Barnum-babble syndrome) so the participation of the sitter is not irrelevant. Especially given the fine line we walk of not being 'closed' (i.e. skeptical) in case of interrupting connection and being 'open' without being prone to a medium or self-induced emotional high very malleable to suggestive manipulation.
What are Mediums actually 'really good' at? Because refining the human capacity for telepathy and intuition is a certifiable qualification these days (see Standsted Hall, London) It is an uncanny trait and it doesn't mean that information isn't 'out there' but from spirits or collective unconscious? We only see it as amazing because most modern humans have lost the art of psychic perception (see burnings and hangings of psychic forebears) and we now want to buy it back.
Real Spirit contact is magical and I think quite rare, and for good reason. Spirits are not going to play dice with our mortal need/want/habit (like the materialist consumerists we have become) for proof, loquacity and (apparently inevitable by some) proclivity for falsity and monetary gain. And we should not practise or accept it on those terms.
 
We only see it as amazing because most modern humans have lost the art of psychic perception (see burnings and hangings of psychic forebears) and we now want to buy it back.
interesting.... here's another take... a Skeptiko take :) when we look at shamanic cultures, which we generally regard as not being corrupted by my modernity, they still seem pretty Amazed by what shamans do.
 
interesting.... here's another take... a Skeptiko take :) when we look at shamanic cultures, which we generally regard as not being corrupted by my modernity, they still seem pretty Amazed by what shamans do.
True. They show due respect for what was once called by (European) Paygans, the 'Mysteries'. That culture was systematically crushed a 1,000 years ago (tho it took 500yrs to achieve) And see the result -our modern culture of shallow knowledge and manufactured fear. The indigenous wisely keep the balanced view that material and spiritual co-exist. I just think there are a few too many Sham-ans in our world.
 
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Alex said:



This comment seems like the perfect entry point for me into this forum as a long time listener to the show and to answer Alex's request for more forum engagement from listeners.

On many occasions I've heard this assertion about unreliable information from spirit/ET during Skeptiko and other podcast interviews. A fine observation, but to use Alex's level 1, level 2 framing, I keep waiting for the level 3 discourse on this issue on Skeptiko.

I have a small point, but I think it is worthy of consideration. If we are living through a test of some kind in this existence, or at the very least a series of challenges that are something akin to an alchemical process (i.e. refinement of the soul,) it seems to me that misinformation or deception from beyond the veil may be, to use an Alan Watts-ism, the wrong thing working in the right way.

I'd like to see more discussion around the interplay between the macro and micro considerations on this issue. To put it succinctly, what may be disorder at one level, may be order at another. The process of fire is destructive, but it is also regenerative.

The nub of my point is that a negative can seed a positive event, and vice versa, in perpetuity. It seems instructive, to me at least, to look at issues of information from the other side through this lens.

Moreover, the implications for the messages an individual receives, may have implications for that individual (eg. Whitley Streiber,) and society in general, in all configurations (++, +-, -+, --).

I'm personally more comfortable with a Taoist approach to considering the benefits or otherwise of misinformation from spirt/ETs, than being stuck in the variables of despair over whether the information is good/evil, true/false.

Decartes' vision that "through number and measure, nature can be conquered," may be looked at in an amoral fashion, as both an advancement and a regression, depending on your worldview.

So, the level 3 jumping off point for me is, are these messages designed to shape the individual or society or both? Are we in a game of bumper bowling where the messages help course correct individuals/society towards some end? Perhaps, course correction is all there is, with no fixed destination in mind?

I'd like to hear some of the minds greater than my own here bat this around. I'm at an impasse in my own thinking on the subject.
You have a great mind. I agree, what are we doing with this esoteric information, aside from be amazed, comforted or mistrustful? Not sure what levels 1 and 2 are, but level 3 does offer hope of progress. I think it must start with the individual, towards collective social change, though not necessarily knowing where it will lead.
 
Hi Alex and forum
The point for me Alex, is did you already have an expectation of "a female 'nurturing' medium" and as a skeptic, if you enjoy perceived contradictions that may have helped 'fix' the plausibility? According to Quantum Physics our (un?) conscious attention has an influence (not forgetting the Barnum-babble syndrome) so the participation of the sitter is not irrelevant. Especially given the fine line we walk of not being 'closed' (i.e. skeptical) in case of interrupting connection and being 'open' without being prone to a medium or self-induced emotional high very malleable to suggestive manipulation.
What are Mediums actually 'really good' at? Because refining the human capacity for telepathy and intuition is a certifiable qualification these days (see Standsted Hall, London) It is an uncanny trait and it doesn't mean that information isn't 'out there' but from spirits or collective unconscious? We only see it as amazing because most modern humans have lost the art of psychic perception (see burnings and hangings of psychic forebears) and we now want to buy it back.
Real Spirit contact is magical and I think quite rare, and for good reason. Spirits are not going to play dice with our mortal need/want/habit (like the materialist consumerists we have become) for proof, loquacity and (apparently inevitable by some) proclivity for falsity and monetary gain. And we should not practise or accept it on those terms.
Welcome to the forum!

I am quite sure that we should look at the shamans, people like Uri Geller, etc - people who can perform ψ most consistently.

I think a number of people here, including me, suspect that quantum mechanics (QM) has some connection with ψ, but exactly what isn't clear - therefore personally I don't feel comfortable with sentences like "According to Quantum Physics.......". For one thing, QM has a number of interpretations, and only some of them involve consciousness.

Stansted Hall is new to me - thanks for the link:

http://www.friendsofstanstedhall.com/

I think Alex should put a clear explanation of our Skeptiko name somewhere. Although we admit people with a whole range of views, we certainly aren't a sceptics society in the usual sense, but rather in the original sense. In other words, we are pretty sceptical of conventional science when it claims to know that ψ doesn't exist, and all that follows from that.

I am sure you will enjoy what this site has to offer. You may want to explore some of the back podcasts - which are all there to listen to, together with followup forum discussion threads.

David
 
True. They show due respect for what was once called by (European) Paygans, the 'Mysteries'. That culture was systematically crushed a 1,000 years ago (tho it took 500yrs to achieve) And see the result -our modern culture of shallow knowledge and manufactured fear. The indigenous wisely keep the balanced view that material and spiritual co-exist. I just think there are a few too many Sham-ans in our world.
IDK... I always think of this awesome movie and it's many layers.
 
Welcome to the forum!

I am quite sure that we should look at the shamans, people like Uri Geller, etc - people who can perform ψ most consistently.

I think a number of people here, including me, suspect that quantum mechanics (QM) has some connection with ψ, but exactly what isn't clear - therefore personally I don't feel comfortable with sentences like "According to Quantum Physics.......". For one thing, QM has a number of interpretations, and only some of them involve consciousness.

Stansted Hall is new to me - thanks for the link:

http://www.friendsofstanstedhall.com/

I think Alex should put a clear explanation of our Skeptiko name somewhere. Although we admit people with a whole range of views, we certainly aren't a sceptics society in the usual sense, but rather in the original sense. In other words, we are pretty sceptical of conventional science when it claims to know that ψ doesn't exist, and all that follows from that.

I am sure you will enjoy what this site has to offer. You may want to explore some of the back podcasts - which are all there to listen to, together with followup forum discussion threads.

David
That's ok David, I am happy with my use of psi as referencing both quantum wave function and parapsychology events because I think there is a link. Are we not also made of atoms so must be capable of both wave and particle forms? Personally I don't use the word quantum 'mechanics' as it sounds too 'machine-like' and limits perception to requiring 'solid' facts when the evidence suggests there is a non-form component. Words can be very limiting when discussing the ineffable! Being 'barely out of nappies' in my knowledge of the subject I use quantum 'physics' as a broader more encompassing term. Although 'physics' also sounds rather 'physical' (damn you obdurate science!)..I have heard of the term 'quantum electro-dynamics'? One also has to be succinct in internet discussions to maintain reader attention. But perhaps this is not sufficiently rigorous for you?

My instinct is to resist such psi practitioners as Uri Geller as being too 'celebrity'. There are many everyday examples of psi events and the conundrum seems to be how we apply tests to scrutinise the veracity without becoming rigidly dictatorial in evaluation of something so 'vaporous' and unpredictable.

Standsted Hall is a very interesting concept as a college for medium training, but I wonder if they are not actually a school for teaching the art of intuition and perhaps unwittingly producing a swathe of scammers bound to dupe a population of bereaved hopefuls for monetary gain.

I think I understand your use of 'Skeptiko' to mean a reasonable intention to seek a balanced view that incorporates all aspects of human experience and avoid the apparent segregation of information into inevitably opposing camps. Healthy skepticism as I mean it is a necessary component to avoid blind faith, although that seems to be what many scientists expect of the uneducated masses.

I am indeed enjoying back podcasts. Thank you for a great user-friendly site and forum opportunity.
 
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Words can be very limiting when discussing the ineffable! Being 'barely out of nappies' in my knowledge of the subject I use quantum 'physics' as a broader more encompassing term. Although 'physics' also sounds rather 'physical' (damn you obdurate science!)..I have heard of the term 'quantum electro-dynamics'? One also has to be succinct in internet discussions to maintain reader attention. But perhaps this is not sufficiently rigorous for you?
I did chemistry at university, and did actually use QM as part of that course and in my PhD that followed. I guess that makes me a bit picky, but I agree that there is something spooky about QM, and that it is likely to be part of the mystery of how our non-physical minds interact with our brains, and sometimes with things outside our brains (i.e. ψ). However, I really want scientists to take ψ seriously, and I think one thing that prevents that, is the way the word 'quantum' has come to mean almost nothing - but a mysterious nothing! You can look up "quantum X" on google, where X is just about anything and you will get hits. For example, try "quantum coffee", or "quantum sex"!

Of course that mind-brain link might not be through QM at all, but there is a bit of evidence that is interesting - notably Dean Radin did a series of experiments in which he got experienced meditators to generate a small shift in the interference pattern produced in a sealed version of the 2-slit experiment. However, it seems to me that it is hard to distinguish this from other examples of weak PK effects.

My instinct is to resist such psi practitioners as Uri Geller as being too 'celebrity'. There are many everyday examples of psi events and the conundrum seems to be how we apply tests to scrutinise the veracity without becoming rigidly dictatorial in evaluation of something so 'vaporous' and unpredictable.
Well Uri Geller was examined in a laboratory, and performed well, even though it is claimed that he occasionally cheated.
As Alex explained at the start of the podcast, Marisa Ryan is not just any old medium, she passed Julie Beischel's multiply blinded mediumship test. The medium never speaks with the sitter, and the sitter has to choose which of several medium accounts relates to their deceased person. This eliminates all the usual 'explanations' of mediumship.

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._used_in_laboratory-based_mediumship_research

She also describes her technique in an earlier podcast with Alex.

David
 
Trying to grasp the bigger picture is misleading, I'm of the belief that we can't ever grasp it. The more we expand our awareness and perception the more reality we let in to our finite brains which becomes an expanded yet incomplete finite perception, leaving room for unlimited levels of reality we can't currently understand. We don't know how deep this rabbit hole goes or does it ever end? Maybe the more we grasp it the more butterfly ripple effects we cause in realities we don't know exist yet. Occultist or scientists have not reached this level of awareness yet. Some have gone further than others, none have reached a "pinnacle"
As a person who deals with psi daily, I don't care for fitting my experiences under a materialistic paradigm aka another small squeeze of perception.
 
I did chemistry at university, and did actually use QM as part of that course and in my PhD that followed. I guess that makes me a bit picky, but I agree that there is something spooky about QM, and that it is likely to be part of the mystery of how our non-physical minds interact with our brains, and sometimes with things outside our brains (i.e. ψ). However, I really want scientists to take ψ seriously, and I think one thing that prevents that, is the way the word 'quantum' has come to mean almost nothing - but a mysterious nothing! You can look up "quantum X" on google, where X is just about anything and you will get hits. For example, try "quantum coffee", or "quantum sex"!

Of course that mind-brain link might not be through QM at all, but there is a bit of evidence that is interesting - notably Dean Radin did a series of experiments in which he got experienced meditators to generate a small shift in the interference pattern produced in a sealed version of the 2-slit experiment. However, it seems to me that it is hard to distinguish this from other examples of weak PK effects.


Well Uri Geller was examined in a laboratory, and performed well, even though it is claimed that he occasionally cheated.
As Alex explained at the start of the podcast, Marisa Ryan is not just any old medium, she passed Julie Beischel's multiply blinded mediumship test. The medium never speaks with the sitter, and the sitter has to choose which of several medium accounts relates to their deceased person. This eliminates all the usual 'explanations' of mediumship.

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._used_in_laboratory-based_mediumship_research

She also describes her technique in an earlier podcast with Alex.

David
Labratory experiments are vain and don't make any sense. Seeing small blips of tk. The person could only do it when their energy was "correct" a study in energy/bio energy, semen retention is important to putting more puzzle pieces together. The proper literature for such phenomenona is not being studied. You have to dive in to the occult sciences for a broader picture. Not the European scientific revolution literature. People are off on the wrong foot
 
Trying to grasp the bigger picture is misleading, I'm of the belief that we can't ever grasp it. The more we expand our awareness and perception the more reality we let in to our finite brains which becomes an expanded yet incomplete finite perception, leaving room for unlimited levels of reality we can't currently understand. We don't know how deep this rabbit hole goes or does it ever end? Maybe the more we grasp it the more butterfly ripple effects we cause in realities we don't know exist yet. Occultist or scientists have not reached this level of awareness yet. Some have gone further than others, none have reached a "pinnacle"
As a person who deals with psi daily, I don't care for fitting my experiences under a materialistic paradigm aka another small squeeze of perception.
Your post reminds me of the graphic novel Black Science. It deals with the exact idea you mention of dimensional ripples in a pulpy, sci-fi context.

The faith the west puts in science and technology frequently astounds me. Very rarely do we see the idea posited that materialistic science is in combat with a hydra, with each severed head spawning two new heads with ever more complex variables we do not have the ability as a species to control. We are so many Brer Rabbits punching at tar.
 
I did chemistry at university, and did actually use QM as part of that course and in my PhD that followed. I guess that makes me a bit picky, but I agree that there is something spooky about QM, and that it is likely to be part of the mystery of how our non-physical minds interact with our brains, and sometimes with things outside our brains (i.e. ψ). However, I really want scientists to take ψ seriously, and I think one thing that prevents that, is the way the word 'quantum' has come to mean almost nothing - but a mysterious nothing! You can look up "quantum X" on google, where X is just about anything and you will get hits. For example, try "quantum coffee", or "quantum sex"!

Of course that mind-brain link might not be through QM at all, but there is a bit of evidence that is interesting - notably Dean Radin did a series of experiments in which he got experienced meditators to generate a small shift in the interference pattern produced in a sealed version of the 2-slit experiment. However, it seems to me that it is hard to distinguish this from other examples of weak PK effects.


Well Uri Geller was examined in a laboratory, and performed well, even though it is claimed that he occasionally cheated.
As Alex explained at the start of the podcast, Marisa Ryan is not just any old medium, she passed Julie Beischel's multiply blinded mediumship test. The medium never speaks with the sitter, and the sitter has to choose which of several medium accounts relates to their deceased person. This eliminates all the usual 'explanations' of mediumship.

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._used_in_laboratory-based_mediumship_research

She also describes her technique in an earlier podcast with Alex.

David
Yes I listened to Julie Beischel and have seen/heard Marisa Ryan before Alex's interview. But having had a disappointing reading from Alan Hugenot, concerning settling a point on my dead mother's Will..I note that Marisa also declines to answer legal issues, I'm not sure why.

Distance viewing conducted by psychics for the military seems similarly 'blind' but they don't claim to be informed by the deceased.

Really is there any scientific 'wall' that can contain ESP to prove it exists? It exists, but we don't know why.
Who are we actually trying to prove it to, and why?
 
IDK... I always think of this awesome movie and it's many layers.
Yes, interesting. It would have been more honest (& respectful) for the westerner to ask to exchange skills as that would at least make them equals. I don't see that humility in Western culture. Christian/Catholic invaders have always been about obliteration, denial and patronising ignorance. Which is why it has lost its spirituality.
 
Your post reminds me of the graphic novel Black Science. It deals with the exact idea you mention of dimensional ripples in a pulpy, sci-fi context.

The faith the west puts in science and technology frequently astounds me. Very rarely do we see the idea posited that materialistic science is in combat with a hydra, with each severed head spawning two new heads with ever more complex variables we do not have the ability as a species to control. We are so many Brer Rabbits punching at tar.
I'll have to check that novel out. I agree with the west and their views/position on science. One of my Co workers was talking to another Co worker about psychics and a certain church that has them read your future or something along that extent. I was skeptical, the other Co worker is an atheist. He gives off this air of being smarter than everyone, but not in a condescending way. He's very A and B and believes any thing the TV tells him when it relates to Science. I joined in on the convo on our lunch break and told them I have sporadic psi experiences which I do have documented on my phone. Anyway after I stated that he kind of froze up and said I"m not going to say anything" well why? He's not going to believe me so why waste time. It would have to be reported on a mainstream outlet for him to believe it I'm guessing. Am I in a Labratory when it happens? No I was not. The group I was practicing with knew my psi and other people psi is real you'd be surprised how unexcited people are about it. They don't care about any scientific website or articles or studies trying to debunk it was poorly constructed statistical analysis. I was taught the human body is for lack of a better description a battery. That may be part of why you see or experience little blips, partly because you don't know how to control it you haven't practiced or worked that "muscle" the TDEE of this stuff can cause fatigue weakness and or fainting nose bleeds or death. There's a dark side to this stuff.
I explained on a post here an example is in the show stranger things when the girl with telekinesis exerts to much TDEE her nose bleeds and she faints. Our bodies/energy field are not yet capable to handle the amount of energy intake to control these latent powers so when we go over our TDEE we begin to have energetic and physical symptoms
 
A few people from a field in hard sciences came to inquire listen and learn about the occult sciences and they loved it. They were older and veterans in their fields they were taking notes asking questions having healthy dialogue back and forth it was a joy to watch as opposed to watching some blowhard like Shermer or Randi. The 2 elders in the hard science field said the occult science and the hard sciences have so much in common and both are needed to mend the gap. No bickering no scoffing it was truly awesome.
With that said I'm trying to be vague about some of this stuff
 
Yes I listened to Julie Beischel and have seen/heard Marisa Ryan before Alex's interview. But having had a disappointing reading from Alan Hugenot, concerning settling a point on my dead mother's Will..I note that Marisa also declines to answer legal issues, I'm not sure why.
I don't quite know what you mean by settling a point - do you mean you think there may be other documents that modify the will, or what - I mean what sort of thing were you asking the medium (without divulging anything too personal).
Distance viewing conducted by psychics for the military seems similarly 'blind' but they don't claim to be informed by the deceased.

Really is there any scientific 'wall' that can contain ESP to prove it exists? It exists, but we don't know why.
Who are we actually trying to prove it to, and why?
My impression is that trying to dissect ψ into ESP vs clairvoyance vs contact with dead spirits vs remote viewing , isn't very productive. Possibly it is analogous to those, "do you love me for my mind or my body" type of arguments!

David
 
Trying to grasp the bigger picture is misleading, I'm of the belief that we can't ever grasp it. The more we expand our awareness and perception the more reality we let in to our finite brains which becomes an expanded yet incomplete finite perception, leaving room for unlimited levels of reality we can't currently understand. .
nice one... I really don't see how it can be otherwise
 
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