Meaning in life without meaning in the Universe

#21
I place them in a different category. Placing everything in one box is a tautology that disregards the ego and our human rationality. And I think the ego is a spiritual product and has reason to exist, as much as our individuality and our ability to discriminate and reason.
Human rationality is irrelevant! To this. Human rationality is unrelated to the meaning we're discussing. In fact, it most often limits and/or distorts awareness of the actuality of said meaning. Same for reason, etc.

The ego is a spiritual expression is true. Of course all states and things are spiritual expression. Even being unaware of the existence of spirit is a spiritual expression. And yes they all exist for a purpose. But that purpose may or may not be beneficial to one's intent.
 
#22
Human rationality is irrelevant! To this. Human rationality is unrelated to the meaning we're discussing.
Disagree. As long as we are human our human rationality plays a vital (and spiritual) role to our human understanding. And I see nothing spiritually wrong with that.

My Best,
Bertha
 
#23
Disagree. As long as we are human our human rationality plays a vital (and spiritual) role to our human understanding. And I see nothing spiritually wrong with that.

My Best,
Bertha
Well, it does and it doesn't. People are different. Not everyone is inclined to spend time rationalising, some just get on with doing whatever has to be done. That doesn't mean they are lacking in spiritual understanding.
 
#24
Well, it does and it doesn't. People are different. Not everyone is inclined to spend time rationalising, some just get on with doing whatever has to be done. That doesn't mean they are lacking in spiritual understanding.
I always envied those people - that just got on with doing whatever has to be done! And I agree, they may be even more spiritual in some sense. The mold I broke out of has always had me questioning "why" and the "mystery of death" - never far from my own front doorstep.

My Best,
Bertha
 
#25
Disagree. As long as we are human our human rationality plays a vital (and spiritual) role to our human understanding. And I see nothing spiritually wrong with that.
Irrelevant to existence having meaning. And no, rationality has no spiritual role - it is a human construct. A very limited one at that. That in many situations person A claims something to be rational while person B claims the opposite should clue anyone in to it being just a convenience. It's a tool. It has a few valid applications. But to rely on it or to posit it as the most valid way is an error. In fact that wasn't done till the rise of materialism.
 
#26
Irrelevant to existence having meaning. And no, rationality has no spiritual role - it is a human construct. A very limited one at that. That in many situations person A claims something to be rational while person B claims the opposite should clue anyone in to it being just a convenience. It's a tool. It has a few valid applications. But to rely on it or to posit it as the most valid way is an error. In fact that wasn't done till the rise of materialism.
I am not saying rationality is the most "valid way". I am saying it is meant to be used, as a human life is meant to be lived. We are spiritual beings having a human experience. We are not human beings attempting to have a spiritual experience. This is my approach to spirituality. Your mileage may differ.

My Best,
Bertha
 
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#27
I always envied those people - that just got on with doing whatever has to be done! And I agree, they may be even more spiritual in some sense. The mold I broke out of has always had me questioning "why" and the "mystery of death" - never far from my own front doorstep.

My Best,
Bertha
I'm not jumping in here but I just want to say, (if I've got you right) I too envy those that are able to just get on with it. Blessed are they who never have a profoundly disturbing thought about the meaning of their existence.

I don't mean that to be patronising to people like that but they just sail through life like Mr Magoo. Not a bad way to live in many respects IMHO
 
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#29
I don't hate it. I just think it is absurd to abandon our human reason and search for knowledge for this vague conception of "nothing". It is just another religious cop out - but comes from Eastern traditions. The West and Christianity abnegated reality via saying we should focus all our life on what awaits us in the afterlife. Many Eastern religions abnegated life by focusing on this weird idea that "nothingness" was the ultimate goal of spirituality.

I just disagree with either approach. I think we are human because we are meant to be human. And I believe our spirituality is not meant to abandon our humanness or rationality. Our human ego is no meant to be shunted aside. It also plays a valuable role in our being and our existence (and our spirituality).

My Best,
Bertha
I don't think you have a clear perception of what the Eastern religions are advocating appealing to nothingness as the ultimate goal of spirituality, This is a distortion by you, as the aim is not simply nothing,

But the aim isn't nothingness, but detachment, detachment from worldly or material sense gratifications and sensory pleasures, There are different levels of detachment, even detaching yourself from philosophical enquiry, and just total surrender,

But this surrender doesn't mean neglecting objective duties and becoming someone who just meditates on nothingness, You have objective duties you shouldn't neglect.
 
#30
I don't think you have a clear perception of what the Eastern religions are advocating appealing to nothingness as the ultimate goal of spirituality, This is a distortion by you, as the aim is not simply nothing,

But the aim isn't nothingness, but detachment, detachment from worldly or material sense gratifications and sensory pleasures, There are different levels of detachment, even detaching yourself from philosophical enquiry, and just total surrender,

But this surrender doesn't mean neglecting objective duties and becoming someone who just meditates on nothingness, You have objective duties you shouldn't neglect.
Yes - "Detachment" - "Nothingness" - "Emptiness" - "Surrender" or statements like: "Obviously meaning exists in the universe, but what makes it qualitatively any different than sand or gravity or meaninglessness?"

I think there are as many distortions present in the organized Eastern religions as there have been distortions present in the Western religions. And interesting enough, these distortions are similar in content: life is secondary, full of objective "duties" you are to perform - but spirituality is something you are trying to "achieve", through detachment or self-abnegation etc. There is this bifurcation & separation of the spiritual from life. Once again, we are stuck with a God of the dead, not of the living.

Sorry, I don't buy into that strain of religious doctrine. Never have, and never will.

I don't believe life is a duty that you must perform while pursuing your spirituality. For me: life is the spirituality. We are not human beings trying to have a spiritual experience - we are spiritual beings trying to have a human experience.

“Zen does not confuse spirituality with thinking about God while one is peeling potatoes. Zen spirituality is just to peel the potatoes.” ~ Alan Watts

My Best,
Bertha
 
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